Captain's Quarters -

simply an outrage...

simply disgusting...

thank you for this post.

such a regretful effort by Mr. Novak.

Frankly, I didn't see that Novak's column was a hit piece. I admit that I only quickly read through about half of it before I lost interest, but I took it as just one of those things that reporters/columnists find to write about when there isn't anything else of substance.

I had not heard of this massacre nor of the movie before this. And I won't be seeing the movie.

I wonder if Novak will go after Lieberman since, well, Ole Mel Gibson made a movie about Jews killing Jesus and all....

What is the connection between fighting terrorists and a story about historical banditry?

Robert Novak: "Today's Mormons, including Romney, cannot be blamed for those events."

Cap'n: "Novak's entire column wants to place historical blame for all ills of the Mormon church squarely on the shoulders of Mitt Romney. "

In all honesty, this post is more of a "hit job" on Novak and MSM than Novak's column is on Romney.

When JFK was the first catholic running for the office of presidency (or when he ran to become the first catholic president), he spoke openly about his religion and concerns people had about it.

With terms like Islomofascism thrown around these days, I don't think anyone should be surprised of prejudices against foreign religions existing in the 21st century.

Polls have shown that a large percentage of Americans will not vote for a Mormon. The issue that Novak is getting at with this column is that Romney is not addressing this issue.

To compound things, Morman ARE known to be close-nit and tight-lipped. They are very guarded and some say very heavy-handed when it comes to their history.

This is going to be an issue for Romney. That's what Novak is saying. He's NOT "to place historical blame for all ills of the Mormon church squarely on the shoulders of Mitt Romney."

Like Kennedy, Romney is going to have to address his religion sooner or later.

Since we're talking about 1857, maybe Mitt can apologize for Mountain Meadows right after a couple of the other candidates on stage apologize for owning slaves. I apologize for those Viking raids on Ireland. I told Knut it was a bad idea, but he wouldn't listen.

The Mormon Church has long been defensive and guarded about this massacre... even warning people not to promote the conclusion that BY ordered the attacks (i've heard about an instance of this second hand).

I've known about this massacre and the Mormon Church's handling of it for a while (well before I knew who Mitt Romney is), so I think I can understand better how this is an issue for Romney.

Many Americans have reservations about voting for a Mormon. Romney has chosen not to address this in anyway.

Now, a major film is being released portraying the leader of his church as a person who ordered the massacre of women and children, and he still refuses to addresses it.

I think he may feel the more he gets into this, the worse off he's going to be. But I still think he's going to need to address his religion... talk about it -- not defend it -- but just TALK about it, if he's going to win the presidency.

I agree with OC Chuck. It's a stupid editorial by Novak but I don't know if it proves that Novak has an anti-Romney agenda. It does make Novak look like a lazy bonehead scratching for a story.

key phrase for me: "... Jon Voight (who plays a fictional Mormon bishop)." Gee, another fake but accurate historical film from Hollywood.

Rumor is next week Novak's doing a piece on the Godfather trilogy and how Giuliani refuses to discuss Michael Corleone's move against Moe Greene, Vegas mobsters and all that.

Hasn't Novak reached his expiration date yet?

I don't know much Mormon history, but if Brigham Young had some hand in ordering the massacre, does that make any difference? I don't think the Mormons ever say their church leaders are without sin. And as I understand it, the Church is based on Joseph Smith's prophecy, not on Brigham Young's. Young just managed to lead them out into the desert. I guess you have to be Mormon to understand why that was good thing. Maybe so nobody would envy them enough to follow? That must be it.

Tom Shipley
Novak has taken the intellectually lazy route and believes the meme of the movie - that Brigham Young ordered this massacre. There is no credible evidence that this was ever the case (and anti-Mormon books stating that is was the case doesn't make it the case).

Local Indians were outraged by the behavior of the “Wildcats” (the roughneck immigrant guides from Missouri) some who had shot Utah Indians on sight and without prior provovcation. They turned to local Mormons for help as they considered them allies due to the animosity the Mormon settlers may have still held due to prior persecutions in Missouri. The Indians demanded that the local Mormons join with them in killing members of the wagon train and Wildcats in retaliation. Some Indians even threatened the local Mormons with harm if they did not join them. A handful of young and impressionable Mormon men agreed to join the Indians. Local LDS church leaders dispatched a fast rider to Salt Lake City to ask President Brigham Young what should be done. President Young instructed the local Saints that they should protect the wagon train at all costs and not participate in any retaliation. With 500 miles of rugged terrain to cover for the return journey, by the time the rider returned with Young's message, the massacre had occurred. All Mormons who participated in this killing were excommunicated from the church and the leader was eventually executed when tried in secular courts for murder.

So how is Mitt Romney responsible to even answer questions on this issue let alone comment on a movie taking one particular slant on this controversy unfavorable to the LDS church? Is Guiliani responsible for the Catholic Inquisition and the Sale of Indulgences? Is Lieberman responsible for the Jewish complicity in the death of Christ as the New Testament details? This was shabby journalism and asks a question that ought never be asked.

Captain,
Thou protesteth too much.
The column is not a particularly tough hit job. I frankly see it as someone trying to get their hands around the issue of Mormonism. Hugh thought it was worthy as the title of a book on the subject. If the topic is out there, then people have the right to talk about it. Hugh did not copyright the issue; he copyrighted his take on it.
I think Romney has done well with the issue so far. I don't think Novak's column is going to change that, or many minds either.
Chill.
But this does make me not look forward to my long drive home. I can bet what HH is going to be saying about it.

Read "The Mountain Meadows Massacre" by Juanita Brooks. It is a excellent account of what happened and what led up to the events of that day.

feji, It is only about 250 miles from Salt Lake City to to Mountain Meadows Massacre site and not that rugged of terrain. One of many facts you have wrong. You are correct in saying Mitt is not responsible for any of the wrongs committed that day.

This movie is actually made by a couple of conservatives and it was conceived before we had a Mormon running for President. Read Libertas, the conservative movie blog to get the scoop on this picture.

Fejj,

Don't attack or protest when apology is in order. The fact that local LDS leaders had to ask their leaders in Salt Lake City what to do is proof enough of the crime by an entire stake -- there don't appear to have been any "Saints" here at all. Only one man was prosecuted and convicted for what were the actions of many; that says something too. Didn't these people have any morality? Does not seem so.

Mitt will have to address the issue of his religious affiliation, just as we Catholics have to bear the issue of pedophile (gay) priests harming the flock.

And the Captain is wrong -- ever wonder why all those Native American casinos are springing up all over the place? Why are only certain ethnic groups, and no others, permitted to purchase land, take it outside all tax systems, impose their own legal system on that land, and then build a casino upon it? Reparations, anyone?

"To compound things, Morman ARE known to be close-nit and tight-lipped. They are very guarded and some say very heavy-handed when it comes to their history."

Pssst, Tom Shipley. Your bigotry is showing.

Bitter,

I'm just reacting to what I've seen, heard, read... And honestly, out of all the republican candidates, I probably would prefer Romney.

Also,

Cap'n, if Novak's column is despicable, what was Insight's (and subsequently Fox New's) story on Obama going to school at a Madrassa? I believe your issue with that story was that it was based off a single-source. Not that it used a false take on Obama's religious past and twisted into:

"CALLER: Right. I mean, you think that would possibly give him better insight on the enemy, maybe he doesn’t consider terrorists the enemy.

KILMEADE: Well, we’ll see about that. Yeah, Josh says that."

Where was all the outrage back then? This is small potatoes compared to the Obama/Madrassa Fox News "story."

I am surprised that Robert Novak somehow avoided blaming the Mountain Meadows Massacre on Israel.

I don't get the outrage at this story. Novak's piece doesn't seem particularly galling to me. He seems to be more critical of Romney's refusal to comment on the possible impact of his religion on his campaign. Romney apparently feels that the issue is beneath comment, and Novak feels that he should be addressing it. If that's a hit piece, then maybe we should redefine the term.

I see that Novak quotes Jon Voight, who stars in the film. I read an interview he gave that showed Mr. Voight understands the present global conflict a lot better than most of our politicians.

Bitter Pill,

Bigotry is in the eye of the beholder. I lived in Granger, Utah, for a year as a child. My dad had gotten a job as a prototype machinist and moved there to take the job.

During the time I was there, kids in the neighborhood were ordered not to play with me because I was (and still am) a Catholic. Some of these kids, taking a cue from things their parents must have said, would throw rocks at my siblings and me; they would go out into the fields behind my house and wait until one of us came into the back yard, and then they would bombard us, yelling epithets. Because they were hidden in the tall grass, we never did figure out who they were, other than that they were male and around my age.

It was not a nice time in my life, but in the end, everything worked out for the better -- my dad got fired from his job because his bosses were ordered by a Bishop to make room for an out-of-work Mormon machinist, and we moved to LA where my dad went to work for the Burbank Skunkworks and I didn't have to worry any more about watching my back.

In my estimation, when "bigotry" is rooted in fact, it isn't quite bigotry.

I don't think Mitt has to apologize for such incidents, but he has to show, like every Republican candidate, that he values the lives of every human being, and has in his heart a level of tolerance which unfortunately many of his chosen creed lack.