Captain's Quarters -

I am soooo annoyed that ONLY conservative Republicans are getting credit for having the brains to freak out against this stupid immigration sell-out bill! As an independent, pro-life, pro-gay marriage. tree-hugging, love to vacation in France VOTER, I am now being called a "racist" on a regular basis for discrediting this bill with everybody who will listen. It is not just a conservative issue, wanting to preserve the rule of law, protect our blue collar jobs, protect our taxpayers from exploitation by illegals through their use of schools, emergency rooms, overcrowding our jails, and undercutting our workers on price, not to mention ID theft & drug dealing skyrocketing "thanks" to these belligerent and demanding intruders! DARE to march in our streets and demand RIGHTS
Dare to insist we provide free translators... THIS IS NUTS.

There should be strong opposition toward this immigration bill from Conservatives and anyone who values the rule of law. From a strictly political standpoint, why would any Conservative want to hand the DFL millions of new votes? Bush is not only trying to sell out the country, but he's slitting the throat of the GOP in the process. Two birds with one stone, thanks Bush.

so all Conservatives who voted for this President are now against him?

even the rest of us bloggers?

perhaps this 'collective' mindset will not be something to be proud of in the future, seeing how so-called 'conventional wisdom' is so often proved wrong.

in fact, if the only thing the Conservative bloggers could say about the immigration bill was 'disaster' then i think they should look closer into the mirror.

run away if you see anything resembling Pat Buchanan.

perhaps some might realize they are the one's not seeing things too clearly.

the way Conservatives handled the Meirs Nomination was indeed regretable, as the constuctive suggestion of a better choice could have been less destructive.

as if some simply cannot see the big picture...

again, like a repeating bore, i must say the hyperbole and the vicious nature is really counter productive.

if we could study the influence in Congress, Conservatives have grown since Meirs, Dubai, Immigration, blew up, than maybe these savvyy Conservative bloggers are NOT helping the cause.

this President has never been shy when trying to address serious problems, even when everyone doesn't agree.

like Social Security, his desire to reform Our Nation's Immigration Policy is healthy.

this is what we want responsible Leaders to do.

sure, the fine points of the reform needs work, but so many Conservatives have produced nothing but hatred and vitriol.

truly regretful...

sounding like a bitter child, solves nothing, and only empowers the Liberal Democrat agenda.

He could've thrown Dafydd ab Hugh in there, for some variety. I'd be very surprised if most of the public, who've been answering pollsters on this, have any clue about 21st-century database search technology, or the law enforcement value of just having this large database full of new names, faces, fingerprints, addresses, and vital record information for millions of resident aliens in the country now, that we don't know anything about. The law enforcement value of that is tremendous. When you're looking for an anonymous needle in an anonymous haystack, for a Mohammed Atta type, it helps a lot to cut the size of the haystack by 3/4. Z-Visas will make the haystack a lot smaller. For terrorism, that's the real security part of the compromise. For preventing terrorism, it sure as hell isn't how many fences we have on the Mexican border.

Congrats Ed on nailing it: )

I was amazed to see something that described the situation so well on CNN's site. Aside from not knowing the difference between "anti-immigrant" and "anti-illegal immigrant" Mr. Hamby captured the situation pretty well. I linked your post from my 2006.06.15 "No Illegal Left Behind" Roundup.

I am suprised at the uproar. Bush did not spring anything on us. His position on the matter has been clear for some time. I am a little disappointed with the Senate however, since they more directly respresent the people. Bush can ask for what ever he wishes. when our legislators give him something so many are against, questions must be asked. Anytime anyone works with Edward M. Kennedy alarm bells should be going off some where.

According to rassmussen polls, 80% of AMERICANS want enforcement of the border and are anti-illegal immigrants being granted amnesty.

Since 80% of the population is not conservative bloggers/conservative Republicans, it appears that only a handful of Democrat Senators listen to their constituents even though they claim to listen to them re Iraq War.

The collective senates lack of respect for their constituents (taxpayers) intelligence shows in the bill, ie. 24 hours for background checks, trying to put out smoke screens like the 4.5B for enforcement -- there is supposed to be approx $1B. for the border fence that is not being used for the border fence - how is this $4.5B any different? They think we are so stupid that they can continue to play their games and we are too lazy to learn the truth and too stupid to recognize it when we see it.

6 years for senators term of office is 2-4 years too long. The multiple terms is too long for these poeple to forget that they are not an elite class of people, but that they are the servants of the people and are to be doing the people's business in the people's interest. And their people is the American citizen, period.

A previous commenter nailed it: I now have Bush Derangement Syndrome after Meiers and immigration...and I voted for him twice!!!!!

Never again,whether Jeb or any other

Inland Empire

I really think that Mr. Bush doesn't "get it" because he doesn't have to run for re-election ever again so the threat of being voted out of office isn't apparent to him. I think both Republican and Democratic Congress-people *have* heard their constituencies loud and clear and are scared to death, but Bush is buying them off with money bribes.

I've supported Bush for most of two terms now, but looking back, his impulse has *always* been to throw money at any problem. And that's what he's doing now.

It won't work this time. Bush will be out of a job in 2008, and any Senator who votes for this damnable bill will be, too, and any candidate who votes for it will have kissed his/her chance for the Presidency good-bye.

I want a fence. And I will not support anything or contribute anything or talk about anything until I see the fence being built.

BTW, I would have said this is the THIRD time the American people have faced Bush down: Harriet was the first time, and then when the White House tried to sell our ports to Dubai was the second time there was a raging roar of outrage. That time money didn't work either.

Re: NahnCee at June 16, 2007 12:58 AM

NahnCee wrote: "when the White House tried to sell our ports to Dubai was the second time there was a raging roar of outrage."

They did nothing of the sort. A Dubai port management company--one of the world's best, and a pioneer in high-tech port security, was going to manage a few East Coast ports--no "ownership" involved--using American longshoremen. The same company manages other ports in East Asia. Many of their corporate executives are Americans or Brits. Stuff they load actually arrives at our West Coast harbors already. And the company loads and unloads ships for the US Navy in the Middle East. The whole thing was a tempest in teapot. Not all Arabs want to kill us.

Yep, and progressive bloggers emails all confirm we should set time tables for withdrawing from Iraq. I really don't care for the way bloggers are now claiming to speak for anyone besides themselves. Email does not make you the voice of the conservative movement. There are plenty of us who are sick and tired of the foot stomping, red faced, hyperventilating, and threats. We need to fix our immigration bureaucracy, secure our borders, and bring those here already out of the shadows. The uncompromising immigration absolutists who will accept nothing short of deportation, have now jumped the shark. The country and the conservative movement will go on without them quite nicely, thank you. Malkin and Ingraham shouldn't let the door hit them on the way out.

One of the more bizarre aspects of the current debate is the tendency of some pro-amnesty conservatives to play the race and ethnic cards like any run-of-the-mill Democrat. I suspect that being on the receiving end of racial and ethnic taunts for so many years has created in them a desire to lash out wildly and blindly at others - even if the others are conservatives like myself whose only crime it was to disagree with Bush on this issue. In that sense some pro-amnesty conservatives act like children given a dangerous new toy to play with – they cannot wait to use it on anyone who is handy.

As the husband of a legal immigrant from an east African country, I am weary of the incredible ugliness in this debate on the part of some conservative supporters of the bill. The constant smears like "Buchananites" or "nativists" or "xenophobes" or “absolutists” or even "racists" is a tactic all too common. It does not move me – after all, I get this crapola from the MSM and their Democrat pets 24/7 by just being a conservative in the first place.

Calling the amnesty bill currently in the Senate a disaster is like calling Hiroshima a big bang. In obtaining first my wife's visa and then her "green card" (all by 100% legal means) we actually lived in a bureaucratic hell that few seem to believe exists. I have tried to relate this experience to some pro-amnesty conservatives on other blogs with no success. But perhaps like Hiroshima you have to experience the immigration system for yourself to get the full effect – and see the danger in the current amnesty bill.

I am not even for allowing the ILLEGAL Aliens to stay - the Feds have abused the American citizens over them, and this bill ELEVATES them over CITIZENS and over LEGAL AND LAW-ABIDING peoples.

There are hundreds of thousands who would like to buy citizenship in America for the price offered to the ILLEGAL invaders.

But the main thing is the amount of abuse the politicians have done to American citizenship and the American Constitution and the the American bureaucracies over ILLEGAL aliens - I want to see ALL of that REVERSED!

We cannot make them STOP by saying, "OK, JUST THIS ONE LAST TIME."

We all have children AND WE ALL KNOW THIS.

I want it stopped.

We can remove the ILLEGAL ALIENS with Bounty Hunters, within 60 days, by giving the ILLEGALS 30 days to get out with their stuff before the Bounty Hunters come for them, at which time, all their possessions can be confiscated for Bounty for the Hunters.

The Politicians have abused the system too much - my eye has no pity left.

Too many communities have suffered damage that may not be repairable at all - and they do not have mercy, their eye has no pity.

There are too many LEGALS and LAW ABIDING folks who have patiently waited in line. Too many taxpayers who have faced total ruin over abuses of the IRS in order to fund too many abusive government programs the people DO NOT SUPPORT - I have NO SYMPATHY for one single politician who would promote this garbage IN THE FACE OF ALL THE ABUSE that is part of the package.

NO! NO AMNESTY IN ANY FORM WHATSOEVER!

Too late! The Amnesty bill is a bridge too far, as far as I'm concerned. The Republicans will not get another DIME from me as long as they are supporting this sell-out.

NOT ONE MORE DIME!

I have written to politicians many times about this issue, but what it boils down to is this: In 1986 we tried amnesty with a promise for border security. Americans got the former but not the latter. Since just about all Americans agree that the 1986 method didn’t work, in fairness let’s try security first and see how that works. Secondly if you fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Mr. Kennedy was one of those who made the promises in 1986 and he is now a sponsor of this bill. Like I said, fool me twice and shame on me.

Let’s face it. The 1986 amnesty law was such a failure that nobody, democrat or republican, will trust another such law (We have all heard the horror stories and seen the statistics of California jails overflowing with dangerous illegal immigrant criminals).

Bush has good intentions regarding matching workers with employers and attempting to “put undocumented aliens on the books” but, the current bill has loopholes so big you could drive a Mac Truck through them.

Section 601(h) of the bill just is too weak and has far too many loopholes to achieve Bush’s goals. Once, an illegal immigrant is here the loopholes will ensure he stays here for good – regardless of documentation or criminal history.

Also, people just don’t buy the idea that the Fed’s are going to thoroughly “investigate” some unknown illegal alien via finger print checks within a day. That is intuitively impossible given that it takes a week for a documented person to get a visa. A thorough background check is not going to be completed. The ability for terrorists to slip through the system is very high.

Some republican advisors think that giving 12 million undocumented aliens a "Z-visa" will tend to make them vote republican. I would suggest that is not the case. Most of those 12 million undocumented aliens are in California and will probably vote democrat. For the few that vote republican they will be over whelmed by the democrats and their vote will be nullified.

Lastly, this whole immigration debate has been manipulated by the democrats. The Republicans are being out maneuvered and are looking like fools.

I say turn the political tables and put the dems on the defensive. Let’s get our act together and not let the dems split the GOP.

Those commentators who are telling us, for example, that "this bill will create a great enforcement database" don't understand a basic fact.

We've been promised enforcement for a couple of decades, and it just hasn't happened. We no longer care what's in the bill. We want enforcement implemented without amnesty. Once we see enforcement implemented, we can talk about amnesty, guest workers, or other issues.

Because effective implementation will cause a reaction. That reaction could be a sudden shrinkage in the market for illegal workers. Or, it could be a sudden round-up of illegals with criminal records. It could be good, or it could be bad. Until we see it, we can't really judge how an "amnesty" program should work.

Let’s face it. The 1986 amnesty law was such a failure that nobody, democrat or republican, will trust another such law (We have all heard the horror stories and seen the statistics of California jails overflowing with dangerous illegal immigrant criminals).

Bush has good intentions regarding matching workers with employers and attempting to “put undocumented aliens on the books” but, the current bill has loopholes so big you could drive a Mac Truck through them.

Section 601(h) of the bill just is too weak and has far too many loopholes to achieve Bush’s goals. Once, an illegal immigrant is here the loopholes will ensure he stays here for good – regardless of documentation or criminal history.

Also, people just don’t buy the idea that the Fed’s are going to thoroughly “investigate” some unknown illegal alien via finger print checks within a day. That is intuitively impossible given that it takes a week for a documented person to get a visa. A thorough background check is not going to be completed. The ability for terrorists to slip through the system is very high.

Some republican advisors think that giving 12 million undocumented aliens a "Z-visa" will tend to make them vote republican. I would suggest that is not the case. Most of those 12 million undocumented aliens are in California and will probably vote democrat. For the few that vote republican they will be over whelmed by the democrats and their vote will be nullified.

Lastly, this whole immigration debate has been manipulated by the democrats. The Republicans are being out maneuvered and are looking like fools.

I say turn the political tables and put the dems on the defensive. Let’s get our act together and not let the dems split the GOP.
[hope this is not posted 2 times]

s sommer wrote (June 15, 2007 10:01 PM):

I am soooo annoyed that ONLY conservative Republicans are getting credit for having the brains to freak out against this stupid immigration sell-out bill! As an independent, pro-life, pro-gay marriage. tree-hugging, love to vacation in France VOTER, I am now being called a "racist" on a regular basis for discrediting this bill with everybody who will listen. It is not just a conservative issue...

Welcome to the party.

This is part of how politics works in the US (and, I suppose, everywhere): label any opposition as the mindless rantings of some hated rival group so it doesn't look "mainstream". Those who support shamnesty make it sound as if those of us who oppose it are all conservatives, which in MSM-speak means Christian right-wing homophobe sheet-wearing bigots. We oppose amnesty because we hate Latinos just as we hate all minorities, you see. Never mind that, as I understand it, some of the staunchest opponents of shamnesty ARE minorities who went through the long and byzantine process of naturalization to become American citizens.

I'm sorry to say that ad hominem attacks are common because they are effective. I use them myself. Hmmm... Maybe I should think about changing my ways...

This amnesty bill is a disaster to US

RBMN

Lets not forget that Atta get a visa extension from the same “databases” that will track the millions of newly made US citizens – while the same system is not able to issue passport for the current American citizens, hence the new border laws have to be “adjusted” to allow for the hiccups.

It is not the technology, it is the will, and from all we have been presented so far, that goes only as far as acquiring many millions of all sorts of people, some of them of very dubious background, through the very back-door (rather, back-gate).

As a legal immigrant to the US, I had to take medical examination, full vaccination, blood tests proving that I have never taken drugs of any kinds, police checks from many countries where I happened to live more than 6 months (some of them at great expenses). Why the burden on the legal immigration system then? I paid about 10 thousands for the family just for the preparatory admission papers etc – when it is acceptable for tens of millions to get the green card overnight. Will they have blood tests for substance abuse done – police checks from every country they lived in – surely not.

US wants to clean the streets of Irak and secure its borders, yet president Bush repeats ad nauseaum its mantra – it cannot be done here. If not here, then how can we hope the same in Iraq? Well, the royal family has clear real estate deals hence interests to spend every billion to nation-build it, here, the royal family is doing a paid nation-destroying as it needs the money for the botched real estate deals.

Databases will not resolve the fact that US has elected a bunch of salespeople in Senate.

I can't believe how this scamnesty is being pushed down the throats of American citizens!

You right wingers amaze me. The Republicans ruled this country for six long years. You controlled the Presidency, the House and the Senate. Tom Delay punished members of your own party to keep them in line. During those six years, you did nothing, NOTHING, about immigration. You have no credibility.

RBMN - “Not all Arabs want to kill us.” True, one can generalize the same for any given large sample – such as, not all Senators belong to gangsta (but the sample is small here – not a given really); so lets try again – not all presidents are traitors (such as, put their hand on the bible to upheld the US laws – and then explaining that some of the laws are well, not enforceable).

The important aspect is that MOST Arabs want to kill us – their higher-ups want to just bankrupt us but that is just a finer interpretation of the ROP (I know, I know, not all arabs are part of the ROP – best example, our dimwit arab in chief – he is definitely not yet converted, but almost there).

!.Tamper-proof ID's for all.

2. draconian fines for employers of those without such cards.

3. if no work it will be like the lions at the dry water hole. they will leave.

4. problem of removal of 12 million largely solved.

Wow if the Conservatives just had a candidate that could articulate all this new found coalition of refined policy vision. Name one Conservative running for office that has all the right stuff to keep the real conservatives satisfied? Hmmm, bet it's not one of the actual candidates. Pure conservative hype, The way it ought to be, but no one has the spine to stand up and take charge, just feeble excuses and plenty of blame to distract form the real balless inaction. stooges, you are all stooges, whiney complainers who live in a vacuum with their lofty principles, who complain because everyone actually running for government can't seem to articulate your pipe dream policy initiatives. You had the Trifecta for 6 years, no one believes you were helpless or that it was the Democrats fault. Miserable greedy hypocritical whiners the lot of you all.

I've been a democrat my whole life, a liberal one even, and I don't support the immigration bill. I never thought I'd be in-line with conservatives, especially on what is (kind of) a social issue, but why on Earth can't we secure our borders? If $4.4 B can secure them, why does it need to be tied to an immigration bill? Shouldn't it be a defense bill? It seems to me that the immigration policy of the US is broken, but fixing it is pointless unless the border is secure, and those violating it (or inducing its violation, as is the case with employers of illegal immigrants) are held accountable.

Actually fly-man,

We are the same people that coach your kids; run the cub scout , girl scout, & boy scout programs, organize food drives; on and on, all while people like you sit back and "watch others engage in their communities" and bitch about how you could do it better...

I've seen your kind a thousand times over...

This shamnesty bill is rotten from the core; anybody with an I.Q. above 99 can see right through this disaster. Every fair minded American wants "solutions" rather than "failed policy". It's not that hard for most to comprehend fly-man.

RBMN: "I'd be very surprised if most of the public, who've been answering pollsters on this, have any clue about 21st-century database search technology, or the law enforcement value of just having this large database full of new names, faces, fingerprints, addresses, and vital record information for millions of resident aliens in the country now, that we don't know anything about."

Precisely for this reason, the bill forbids ICE from sharing the database with law enforcement and intelligence agencies. Does this fact change your opinion on the bill?

To add to the debate I have one conservative idea to solve the immigration problem.

Solving our illegal immigration problem only requires two steps. The first is to require a tamperproof biometric ID to be obtained by all immigrants within say one year. Anyone not having one after that time would be immediately deported.

The second step is to strictly and universally enforce a penalty of say $50,000 per violation on all employers who hired anyone without a proper ID after the one year period. Soon there would be no demand for foreign workers. Those coming here after one year would be self identified as being up to no good.

Employers should not object as they would be under the same rule they would have no competitive disadvantage with their direct competition. Increased costs would simply be passed on to the purchasers of their products.

Those immigrants already living here would also not object as these workers would undoubtedly see a strong upward spike in their earnings. This would come about because with the elimination of the new supply of immigrants they would now have little competition for their highly demanded work skills.

But some would say that these illegal immigrants would still be living in the shadows. In Houston where they cannot be asked their citizenship status, receive free health care, receive free education, have the ability to obtain a license to drive a car, and have the ability to often vote illegally, they definitely are not living in the shadows. Most would be satisfied in retaining their present status with their increased earnings. Opponents unwittingly make the case for this when they argue that under the proposed legislation those receiving Z visas would simply not return to the country of their origin but would prefer to remain in the shadows as the better choice. Living in the shadows must not be too bad.

So I would assert that those already here who have obtained an ID should be allowed to remain and that we should kick this can down the road until the time when they have more fully assimilated and a consensus of Americans can be reached on what to do.

To solve the problem of seasonal workers demanded by American business the government of Mexico should be required to set up something akin to an employment agency where American companies would contract with them for certified-to-be-safe, bonded workers who are no security threat who would return to Mexico after the contract was over. Failure to return would result in forfeiture of the bond which should be at least equivalent to their cost to American taxpayers for the interval between their discovery and their deportation. The forfeited funds could be used for providing more security at the border.

Border security is a must. Sheriffs of border counties should be in charge of security in their county as they best know the terrain and crossing points. A wall should be built in sections and evaluated for effectiveness as it is being built. If effective build more, if not adjust.

I am a conservative presidential candidate who is probably among the second tier of ten candidates in Republican Presidential contest. A bit more detail on the above idea can be accessed at http://www.voteforvern.com

Vern Wuensche (win-she)
Republican Candidate for President 2008

I've been a democrat my whole life, a liberal one even, and I don't support the immigration bill.

Keep that secret to yourself. Never let the MSM discover such. One of the reasons I think the GOP has went more insane than DIMS is because the stupidity of this one issue. READ MY LIPS: The DIM base hate this as much or more than the howling Pugs. Do the Mex get this message? NO. Do they now support Bush's position? NO. They agree with all of you. Bad, bad Bush.

You won. You painted DIMS into the best possible light. You created a forever link between black/brown. You destroyed the GOP.

Bush? I want any honest Pug out there to tell me that you voted for Bush twice and did not know his position on this issue. Before he ran the FIRST time. You are lying if you say not.

You can dream but they are not going back. The only thing you accomplished is pushing and shoving an entire voter block into the DIM corner. That's it.

No, Bush will NOT change his position. Good on him. The only man in DC who says what he means and means what he says. This bunch of hyperventilating pundits that have stirred this destruction of the ruling Party......well at least they are not going to get another shot. Gone. We wandered in the No Congress Wilderness for 40 years. We finally got a shot. We were growing.

You will NEVER accomplish one thing as long as you are in that wilderness. Not one. Congratulation. Done deal. Such stupidity is unbelievable. When you manage to get your way over Immigration and not just 'stop something'..........call me. Will be happy to eat crow.

Bush does not need to 'listen or tend' to his base. The base is now insane and it is his duty to ignore fools as he has been doing all over the world for 6 years. These stinking hair shirts that Pugs have decided to wear on every issue and point at Bush when we had an elected Senate and House of hundreds.......stink. It is insanity to blame one person when you knew his position to begin with. He didn't change. You went over the cliff.

I am not disappointed in Bush II, I didn't expect much from him or his father and I was not surprised. Both started wars in Iraq which left us worse off than before, and I was against both. For the first five decades of my life it was always Democrats who got us into wars. The Bushes and the neo's have reversed that. Of course the neo's were started by Democrats. In fact there were enough good things that I have been a little bit pleased.

GOOD
Most judicial appointments
Most tax initiatives
Signing NAFTA
Other free trade initiatives
Former questioning of anthropological global warming
Persevering with Iraq war

BAD
Border security, internal control of aliens, immigration bill
Not finishing Afghanistan war when we had the initiative and momentum
Spending
Not using veto to establish veto credibility
Starting Iraq war
Not finishing Al-Sadr when it was much more feasible
Firing lower ranks of Iraqi military
Not closing Afghan and Iraqi borders
Numerous bad appointments especially sycophants from Texas and Florida including hangers on from Bush I, Hispanic cabinet members, Miers, FEMA

owl2 I agree with you 100% the angry right is running right off a cliff like a bunch of lemmings. I've been a conservative my entire life and have never been so ashamed of the tone and tenor of debate. This is the exact same tone and tenor of lefty moonbats. Conservative moonbats can't even recognize just how out of touch with reality they are or just how oblivious they are to the damage they are doing to the GOP. The only thing that could possibly save the GOP would be noticeable improvement in Iraq while the Dems are trying to surrender to al Qaeda.

burt: "Not closing Afghan and Iraqi borders
". That cannot be marked as bad, you mean sending millions of AQ operatives home? Wait, we cannot send our illegals over (its such an impossible task) but expect to be doing this in Arab ghettos? That should never be expected, based on our President explanations (and the dems).

Hey...what in the world is the matter with George W Bush? He has had more than enough time to secure our borders but has chosen not to. Our border patrol people risk prison by attempting to stop the illegals. Many want to call it racial but the truth is; we don't hate other races but we do love our country. Bush has betrayed us all. Many in our area want to know what really went on behind closed doors during Bush's last trip to Mexico. Is he also guilty of outright treason? We think there is something bigger going on here than we know about.

NahnCee 12:58 AM, not only is RBMN 1:32 AM correct on this one, but the Chinese Government has a similar, but not identical, position in a number of large west coast US ports as well as the Panama Canal. The Chinese Government is selling state of the art surface to air missiles to Iran which has given them to enemy combatants in Afghanistan and Iraq. The Chinese also provide training in use of the weapons. I would much rather have the Dubai company involved than the Chinese Government.

Rose 2:27 AM, as usual, I like your spicy prose as well as your thoughts.

max gavin 8:35 AM, I like your thoughts, as well, and your concise delivery.

sure enough the comments are mostly diatribe, with threats of refusing future support to the GOP.

is this what these supreme Conservative bloggers want?

generic cries of 'amnesty' are not going to help anyone.

Conservative bloggers may just be building an anti-movement that loses all trust in anything, preaching their angst to an echo chamber.

instead of steering the GOP and growing the Conservative interest within the Republican Party.

beginning to believe the Conservative blogging experience is not helpful, as the vote in 2008 may reveal it is hurting the cause.

we shall see...

"what in the world is the matter with George W Bush? He has had more than enough time to secure our borders but has chosen not to."

LOL

simply baseless...

in fact this Bush Administration has done more to secure the southern border than the last 4 Presidents combined.

even the National Guard is down south, reporting crossings to the Border Security.

they helped get the fence built in San Diego with Duncan Hunter, fighting the ACLU in the Courts.

here is the work done on the border by this Administration alone...

"Increased border and immigration control (right direction-not enough-but improved greatly since Clinton Negligence):
Since President Bush took office, agents have apprehended and sent home more than 6 million people entering the country illegally - including more than 400,000 with criminal records.

More than 600,000 illegal immigrants were apprehended through the Arizona Border Control Initiative last year - an increase of more than 50 percent increase over the previous year.

Last year, it took an average of 66 days to process a non-Mexican illegal immigrant. Now, the process is taking only 21 days.

Since President Bush took office, funding for border security has increased by 66 percent.

The Border Patrol has been expanded to more than 12,000 agents, an increase of more than 2,700 agents, or nearly 30 percent. The President's FY07 budget funds another 1,500 new agents."

Republicans produced a border security bill alone prior to the 2006 elections, which the President signed.

but with a Democrat Congress, that Bill has been put to sleep.

commenters seem to believe the President is a dictator...

the President needs the reform to be passed in Congress.

if you disagree with his position, that is fine, but to distort the record is absurd.

Conservatives have allowed the Immigration Issue to become an embarrassment.

Conservatives used to employ reason, facts, logic, responsible expression.

now they seem to push bizarre misrepresentation.

maybe some are actually liberals trying to undermine the effort.

it is sad to see...

"Open Letter To The American Senate"

Dear Senators,

It is an outrage that with over 70% of the American people asking Congress to rather implement our existing immigration laws, and vehemently opposed to the recently defunct "amnesty" bill legislation, that the "Unholy Alliance" made up of President Bush, the McCain "RINO" Republicans, and the Kennedy - Reid pro-unfettered illegal immigration Democrats in the Senate, be contemplating reviving it once again, and trying once more to shove it down our collective throats against our will! I am so outraged and ashamed by Senator Reid and all his positions, as a Nevadan, that it is appalling - so much for "representative government"!

And now President Bush - not content with his legacy of "10th century Muslim tribal savages love democracy" and "give Palestinians 'Free Elections' so that they can choose the HAMAS terrorists to govern them" pipe dream incompetency in dealing with Iraq and the Middle East - wants to do one better by also surrendering our sovereignty to Mexico, and even recently attended a Hispanic "Prayer Meeting" event, I suppose in the hopes that the defunct "scamnesty" bill would miraculously rise from the dead Lazarus-like through the power of "La Raza's" prayers to the bloodthirsty Aztec gods of their indigenous ancestors! If Bush gets his way on this one, his will prove to be an "enduring legacy" indeed!

As a concerned American I want Congress to enforce our existing laws - including deportations - and secure our porous borders, and not give another free pass and a path to citizenship to over 12 million alien law breakers here illegally, that have no business here in the first place had the government done its duty to begin with and kept our borders secure in the first place!

They are taking away our jobs, abusing our social services at taxpayer expense, lowering our standards of education for our children in order to accommodate their illiteracy, downgrading our quality of life, and eroding our national identity!

Proponents of this "amnesty" travesty bill use the fallacious argument that these illegal, mostly Mexican, immigrants are here to "do the jobs other Americans won't do." Tell that to my son, who lost his landscaping business because paying $18.00 an hour to "legal American" workers he could not compete with unscrupulous landscapers hiring "illegal Mexicans" at $6.00 an hour. Tell that to all those other Americans, who like my son, have lost their businesses, or can't find work, or lost their jobs, to all these illegal aliens swarming us and living amongst us with impunity!

Or tell it to the senior citizen couples on a fixed income living in our cities, who are driven out of their one bedroom apartments by exorbitant artificially inflated rents, that keep rising because of the demand created by these illegal aliens who are willing to pay such prices because twenty of them will share a one bedroom apartment in appallingly unsanitary and crowded conditions and in violation of every City Zoning law, Fire Department code, and Health Department ordinance imaginable, endangering not only themselves but all those around them, while unscrupulous landlords look the other way! How can a senior couple on a fixed income compete with 20 illegal aliens willing to pay such exorbitant rents to live in such deplorable conditions? Where will such seniors go then?

I have a friend from the Philippines who, when she emigrated to America seeking the "American Dream" as all immigrants do, left her son behind in the Philippines with her mother. He was just three-years-old at the time. She immediately applied to bring him over legally, and has been waiting for eighteen years for his turn.

In all this time, and though she visits him, her son has grown into a young man, and she has missed irreplaceable moments of his childhood that she will never be able to recover, because she did what was proper and followed and OBEYED THE LAW. And now you tell me that the Mexican illegal aliens that crossed the border last year are going to be given "amnesty", a "free pass", a "path to citizenship", and "family reunification", while my friend, not only lost sharing her son's precious childhood as a mother, but is still waiting??? How fair is that?!?! Had she known, she'd would have just sneaked him across our southern border - just one more young Mexican sneaking over!

And I would like to stress, before anyone levels any accusations of "bigotry" and or "racism" against me, that I myself am an immigrant, and the son of immigrants, that I happen to be of truly "Hispanic" (as in from Spain) descent, and have relatives who are Mexican and or of Mexican descent, that though an American I am very proud of my ancestry, that all my great-grandparents, both on my father's as well as my mother's side of the family, hailed from Spain - and no, that we did not sneak across the southern border, but came here LEGALLY.

Had the Federal Government and Congress enforced our immigration laws and secured our borders back in 1986 when we granted all the illegals amongst us then "amnesty" the first time around, we wouldn't be having this out of control infestation right now. Legalize these 12 to 20 million illegal aliens amongst us and more will simply keep coming. When will it stop, when they have taken over?!?!

What Lawmakers like yourselves need to do is to stop pussyfooting around, wringing your hands effeminately, and stop selling yourselves out to "Big Business," "La Raza," and other "Reconquista" and special interest groups, represent the will of the people that ELECTED YOU, and enforce our existing immigration laws with real "TEETH" - including DEPORTATIONS of all here illegally - and stop trying to figure a way of shirking-off your responsibility to address head-on the government's past dismal failure in enforcing our immigration laws and securing our borders since that first "amnesty" of 1986 - looking the other way as over 12 million more illegal aliens swarmed us after that - by instead of addressing the problem created by our government's failure and reluctance to enforce our existing immigration laws, compounding it by conveniently getting rid of that "pesky technicality" that in fact these aliens are here ILLEGALLY, simply by enacting legislation "legalizing" them, and rewarding the illegality of all these illegal law breakers invading our country. Period! Remember my "law abiding" Filipino friend's son: eighteen years and still waiting!

Stop this "scamnesty" madness now, enforce our existing laws, and secure our borders first!

It's high time we all realize, even all of you sell-out politicians in "Washington Lululand," that, to paraphrase the very apropos words of a song by the late legendary Cuban "Salsa Queen" Celia Cruz : "No hay cama pa' tanta gente." (There's not enough room in the bed for so many people.)

So very true, enough is enough! Enforce and stop "dilly-dallying" with more "scamnesty"!

Sincerely,

An Outraged American

From Hyscience:

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2007/06/open_letter_to_2.php

Althor

Keemo, My point is if the real conservatives, the one's who had no spine while holding the majority, for the previous 6 years in Congress, had plenty of time to actually pass a bill that 99% of the public would have approved of.Instead, like cowardly little school children, actually more like bullies,kicked the can down the street and then heroically denounced real legislation as a travesty. There are no excuses for the way conservatives have acted regarding this crucial issue. The GOP had control and blew it. To the sidelines please and accept what you get. Someone should have recognized Toonces was at the helm and you all elected him, live with it but please stop trying to voice your opinions now as if they were obstructed before and now only now if we could get an immigration bill that means something to us. Phony spineless rhetoric, face the medicine and take it like men will ya, don't you authoritarians understand that concept?

Posted by: burt at June 16, 2007 12:40 PM

Thanks! :)

To owl2, Cameron and brooklyn: Impressive rants and posts aside, how does the Bush administration's negligence of immigration law enforcement align with Constitutional conservative values? It doesn't.

How does refusal to secure the southern border and/or fence the most frequently crossed areas align with Homeland Security? It doesn't.

Why hasn't this administration addressed the issue of visa overstays, the major cause of the swelling population of illegals? I hear crickets.

To brooklyn, this link is especially for you: http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050303-123638-7500r.htm

President Bush43 violated a law that he himself signed, and greatly diminished the number of Border Patrol agents to be trained and deployed. It's all there.

You said "even the National Guard is down south, reporting crossings to the Border Security." Wrong. This is not the mission of the National Guard. They are there to work in the office, repair equipment and facilities, etc., i.e., in administrative and engineering capacities, allegedly so BP can spend more time in the field.

You said "The Border Patrol has been expanded to more than 12,000 agents, an increase of more than 2,700 agents, or nearly 30 percent. The President's FY07 budget funds another 1,500 new agents."

What citation do you use for this and other statistical claims? I would like to see your proof of an additional 2,700 agents and, by the way, what is the time frame on that addition? You realize a long training period is required for BP agents; therefore, with an "increase" there would need to be larger training facilities and funding for trainers, hmmm? I haven't heard or seen of any of this happening.

The administration does not support the Border Patrol in their work in any way, shape or form. Just like our troops in the ME, their rules of engagement are neutered to the point where being a target is more acceptable than defending oneself. Witness the federal prosecution and/or imprisonment of BP agents for carrying out their duties. Hint: Sutton=Nifong.

You said "if you disagree with his position, that is fine, but to distort the record is absurd." If you agree with Bush's conduct re illegal immigration/border security, that is fine, but distorting the record is the only way you can prop up your case.

Maybe you have a vested interest in being an apologist.

To the fly-man, you said "My point is if the real conservatives, the one's who had no spine while holding the majority, for the previous 6 years in Congress, had plenty of time to actually pass a bill that 99% of the public would have approved of.Instead, like cowardly little school children, actually more like bullies,kicked the can down the street and then heroically denounced real legislation as a travesty."

First of all, plenty of attention has been placed elsewhere on something called the War on Terror.

Second of all, did you hear of a bill passed last year in the House, HR4437? It was a tough border enforcement initiative and, yes, after Hastert was called over to the White House a few times, he allowed it to die in committee.

You can blame Congress all you like, but don't overlook the SERIOUS arm-twisting that comes from the White House on this issue.

Let's see, once the President gets what he wants from the Senate, whether the House can ONCE AGAIN weather the storm and stop the legislation.

RE: owl2 (June 16, 2007 10:40 AM)
Bush? I want any honest Pug out there to tell me that you voted for Bush twice and did not know his position on this issue. Before he ran the FIRST time. You are lying if you say not.

While you're impugning people like me with the bulk of your commentary and not with that excerpted quote, it's the excerpted one I'd like to address. I think I may speak for a few voters, but I'm really responding to explain why some may have voted for Bush in spite of his immigration policy, illegal or otherwise. I'll try to keep it brief and leave off other arguments only for the sake of brevity and not because they aren't important.

I'm a policy voter, not a personality one. If a computer could make logical policy decisions, I'd probably vote for it. So, I knew quite a bit about Bush's policy when he ran in 2000, particularly his open borders one. I was keenly aware of his silver-spooned upbringing and behavior as Governor of Texas, yet he was still better than Ann Richards at the time.

Moving on to the 2000 Presidential, I did not vote for him (though I was a very reliable voter for Republicans) because of the immigration issue and NAFTA/CAFTA/maquiladora concerns. I voted third party because there was no way on God's green Earth I could support Gore, either. I "threw away" my Presidential vote because I was so disgusted with the options.

Fast-forward to September of 2001 after the contentious post-2000 election fiasco. Bush responded exactly how I hoped he would and the way I think any responsible leader would have under the conditions that presented themselves. Many try to rewrite history about how they would behave or did behave at the time, mainly for disingenuous political motivations, so I pretty much ignore their arguments for the dishonest (IMO) opportunism that it represents. Because his agenda, whatever it was at the moment, was immediately and radically altered, Bush could not pursue his desire to open trade/labor/markets with Vincente Fox and Mexico as he had promised prior to and during his campaign. Any act to opening up that topic would have been slammed down hard for the acute issue of border security, and Bush focused on what was considered (or publicly perceived) as the most acute concern, namely aviation industry safety. The border issue, however, operated about the same as it had except that border crossings, particularly southern border ones dropped precipitously because of our externally perceived crackdown on aliens. It really had little to do with much of Bush's or the nation's policy except in relatively hypothetical terms.

As time passed, illegal border crossings started escalating again to norm, but Bush did almost nothing to slow that urgent concern. During the resumption to "normal" illegal flow came the 2004 election and Bush vs Kerry. Well, heck, I wasn't going to vote for the hypocrite with an even more liberal agenda, plus the CiC needed continued support to address the WoT, so Bush got my vote. Further, I hoped he would see the dangers of our open borders and change his behavior because the issue became more of a concern to American citizens. He hasn't and won't except to pay political lip service to get voters to support a flawed policy.

Which leads us to today and the backlash. He will not enforce the law and secure the border. Tepid at best. Period. That contradicts the entire argument of his ardent proclamation that national security is an urgent issue which drives him to action. He cannot legitimately argue that point considering all of the concessions made in defending our shores, and it has little to do with what Congress does on its own. Bush is his own man with his own engine driving this bus.

Longwinded, I know, but it explains why someone who much more often than not votes "R" and who knew of Bush's poor immigration policy still voted for him knowing his history. I've skipped the other components (i.e. the non-security related ones) for brevity (hah!). He was not a perfect candidate (who is?) but events sometimes motivate politicians to change their policy just as events cause voters to change theirs. Events have caused me to dislike Bush quite intensely on many issues (not all, of course) and this is the straw that broke the camel's back. I will not give any more quarter to any candidate, GOP or otherwise, who will not enforce law, defend our borders, or act dishonestly in the crafting of legislation. I should think that would be a desire of all voters and that political labelling become meaningless in this regard. "R" or "D" or "XYZ" mean absolutely nothing to me here. For our current crop of legislators, and the President in particular, the only letter I can envision is a big, fat "F".

brooklyn,

Bullshit, When it's Wrong it's Wrong! I don't care what Flava of poll advocates the amnesty bill!

We do NOT need anymore laws, we have all the tools necessary to deal with illegals now! The new Law/Bill is "Amnesty!" plain and simple!

"If it Walks like a Duck,........!"

1) No Jobs
2) No welfare

No illegals!

Is this too tough for ya?

PS: What happened to this U.S. "Choosing" who they wish to allow in this country? Pick those that are quaiified/needed in our Job Market!

There is a shortage to be sure, but not for Welfare recipients, we've got enough of our own Home Grown to take care of!

Now there's a Novel Idea!!

Sheesh!

Why doh't you that are for a new "Amnesty" Law tell me how our immigration laws compare with Mexico's!!

DUH

Take a close look at this report folks; Republicans and Democrats working together to force this shamnesty bill through by use of methods never used before... Scary, Scary times...

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MmJiMzVmZTZjNjE2ZWM4MDhiMWYzYTI3NjQ1ZjU4NmE=

To Anonymous Drivel:

owl2, brooklyn and Cameron are hit-and-run apologist posters.... they pontificate only and do not debate.

I now believe this opening of the border with Mexico is the very purpose for which GWB was elected, although it's taken me a long time to say it. There is just too much evidence for it.

you know what? when Hillary becomes president, you can kiss your extreme border patrol ideas goodbye. Heck you NEVER complained about immigration until 2006 and as a black person who tries to see both sides of the story, you extremists have done more damage to yourselves than anyone else.

you loved brooklyn and others when they said what you wanted to hear, but when they challenged your insane opinions, you cry like babies.

Let's say W builds a fence. What makes you think that would stop Mexicans from crossing? You think Juan and Maria are just going to look at the fence then turn away?
If BORDER GUARDS WITH GUNS does not deter them, a fence will not.

You pretty much want a DMZ where you can shoot at will .

ps. you do know there are other ways of coming to this country illegally, don't you?

you know what? when Hillary becomes president, you can kiss your extreme border patrol ideas goodbye. Heck you NEVER complained about immigration until 2006 and as a black person who tries to see both sides of the story, you extremists have done more damage to yourselves than anyone else.

you loved brooklyn and others when they said what you wanted to hear, but when they challenged your insane opinions, you cry like babies.

Let's say W builds a fence. What makes you think that would stop Mexicans from crossing? You think Juan and Maria are just going to look at the fence then turn away?
If BORDER GUARDS WITH GUNS does not deter them, a fence will not.

You pretty much want a DMZ where you can shoot at will .

ps. you do know there are other ways of coming to this country illegally, don't you?

Illegals, fraudulent marriages, coyotes, H1-B visa frauds (including the company who secured the visas & the ATTORNEY's who did it for them): Round em all, deport them for miniumu 8-yrs, then let them try to get back legally, these people are a scourge on US society (criminals and frauds) who do not deserve the free ride in our country.
Lets not just have tunnel vision on the Mexican border, think about all those who enter thru the Miami airport Venezuelans, Columbians, Brazilians, lest not Cubans, that's a disgrace to US intelligence or should I say our "un-intelligence". Under Bush this country sank to the lowest of lows regarding just about everything of value to the USA. He's giving our country away with this imiigration bill !!! The visa program should be the first step in border control, the ranchers and Texas Minute Men on horse back patrolling the Mexican border is better than any fence. Mount up and ride, . . .head em up, get em OUT!!!

"Bush? I want any honest Pug out there to tell me that you voted for Bush twice and did not know his position on this issue. Before he ran the FIRST time. You are lying if you say not."

Squishy? yes. So far gone he's ready to sign a Durbin/Kennedy sham-nesty? No.

Back in 2004 (january 2004) he proposed a 'guest worker program' and I bought the song-and-dance and told folks who said that it was 'amnesty' that it wasnt. Wrong! Nevertheless, the reaction he got was negative enough that I and many others thought that Bush wouldnt push hard on this anyway.

I was wrong. I had no idea he'd go for any junk that Kennedy would cobble together. I had no idea that in GOP ranks were so many sellouts willing to give massive and unlimited amnesty and redo the mistakes of 1986. I had no idea he'd encourage the 'million illegals march' or tout the phony 'jobs americans wont do' ad infinitum. I had no idea that he'd undercut even reasonable GOP responses such as "please secure the borders first, and only then lets talk about the rest".

98% of the GOP is against these policies. Bush is in the other 2%. I had no idea that Bush would be so immune/arrogant/clueless/stubborn/bold/defiant to go against his entire base on this.

There is an element of that officer in "Fort Apache" (the henry fonda character) who'd execute a wrong decision rather than have to rethink why he's wrong. Either that or he's living in a bubble and none of his staff is bringing him the info about our broken system that we all know about.

To Anonymous Drivel:

owl2, brooklyn and Cameron are hit-and-run apologist posters.... they pontificate only and do not debate.

I now believe this opening of the border with Mexico is the very purpose for which GWB was elected, although it's taken me a long time to say it. There is just too much evidence for it.

What a crock.

Anon Drivel........I have had sane conversations with you before and appreciate your explanation above.

I fully admit that the way the 'base' handled this issue has made me so mad I have turned into the bull in the china shop. I see it as just such a waste of all resources. Such uncalled for destruction. All for nothing because that will be the end result.

I have not liked half of the bill. I do not agree with Bush, DIMS or Pugs 'base'. We had full power to address this issue. The Grand Pug Pundits said no compromise and those spineless Pugs with the Power........hid. So who was at fault? Bush? Give me a break.

Some say I am uninformed. Fine. How many Mex (and this is about Mex) do you know? Do you know the intimate details about their families? Do you know any that came illegal and worked to become citizens? Do you know the going price to the border agents today? Did you know that the law turned them loose when they were picked up for DWI because you can't get blood out of a turnip? And there were too many? Did you know when they stopped hiding in the ditches and their kids got 'attitude'?

Problems that all needed to be addressed. Yep, some of those kids need attitude adjustments. But someone MUST address this issue at some point. I have been waiting for over 30 years. Thirty years that the law needed to do Something. It is MUCH, MUCH too late for what the Malkin/Tarcredos of this world advocated and stirred. But the problems will not go away. They WILL receive amnesty of some type. That is just a fact. All the Pugs had to do was work this thing to our advantage AND solve some of the bigger problems associated with it. That's all. Instead, let me tell you the end result of all this stir.

The Pugs have created the most anti-Pug group possible. More than the blacks. Why? For the feel good feelings? This is why Pugs are viewed by many as hypocritical, santimonious straight-laced pudes that do not relate to the real world. Now ain't that a joke after the Sheehans/Carters?

To make matters twice as bad, they decided it was that evil Bush's fault.......again. Nuts. Bush put blacks in their first position of power. Bush tried to turn the Mex vote and no, I do not believe he was wanting to give amnesty. Another joke? The Pug base has convinced the Mex that this is all Bush's fault and they now dislike him as much as his base. Nuts and all for nothing. And no, I never agreed with the 'bills' but the destruction this has caused is beyond any redemption.

RE: owl2 (June 18, 2007 11:25 AM)

...We had full power to address this issue. The Grand Pug Pundits said no compromise and those spineless Pugs with the Power........hid. So who was at fault? Bush? Give me a break.

Yes, the GOP majority should have done better pre-'06 midterm. The President should have pressed the issue when he had the GOP majority Congress, and this is why Bush owns so much blame. He opted not to when he had that majority. Worse, he backed the amnesty-only Senate committee version during last session while pooh-poohing the House one. Worse still, he was excited after the GOP lost Congress that he'd get a Congress that would work with him on comprehensive "reform." Worse even still, he refuses to enforce the law, his Constitutional duty and in spite of demands from the vast majority of the country to do so, law which already exists to address illegal immigration, and in a world of global terrorism where we have provedly seen illegals try to commit terrorist crimes. Bush owns this failure because of a desire for cheap labor due to the Commerce Department's business lobbyists and, supposedly, naked politicking for a growing demographic. That Congress, specifically the Senate, is piling on with its own hidden agenda is superfluous "democratic" insult to injury.

...How many Mex (and this is about Mex) do you know? Do you know the intimate details about their families? Do you know any that came illegal and worked to become citizens? Do you know the going price to the border agents today? Did you know that the law turned them loose when they were picked up for DWI because you can't get blood out of a turnip? And there were too many? Did you know when they stopped hiding in the ditches and their kids got 'attitude'?

I'm not sure of all of your point here, but yes, I've lived among one type of Hispanic where I was considered a fringe minority. I've lived among another type of Hispanic where I was almost a minority. I've never made it my business to discover the intimate details of people and neighbors I know. I prefer to respect their privacy and I have my own family to be concerned about. But this isn't really about that except to say that, if Mexico is your major concern, our unenforced policy is actually racist to all of the other demographic groups that try to immigrate. Why should the Africans, the Chinese, the Polynesians, the Latvians, the Kurds, the Brits, etc. be denied their fair shot at the lottery? What of the concept of controlled assimilation that ensures the melting pot, or at least a stew, of ethnicity rather than the detrimental balkanization that destroys so many nations? I reject such a selectively biased policy outright, nevermind the unfairness to those who fairly wait their turn in their own country of origin.

As for the doing "something," something can be worse than "nothing". And this bill is. I cannot begin to summarize all that is wrong with it nor even list the bullet point levels of failure without making this comment interminably long. Besides, I'm sure you've read it all already.

Some can argue the politics of it all, and I'll just question the defense that by increasing the size of the voting demographic that leans heavily social-dependency (and that has been and will remain a Democrat trademark) that the GOP improves its lot. I think it foolish and shortsighted to aim for out-socializing the Democrats to buy voters knowing you cannot, nevermind the irrefutable fact that the demographic being courted will vote ~3:1 for the D's immediately. That, politically, kills the GOP until social welfare gets so bad for everyone that the country starts shifting right. The escape from such socialistic trends may not even be possible as we look across the pond and observe Europe's evolution. Aging democracies, if they aren't diligently defended with strong individualism among the classes, collapse under government weight.

But I digress. I'll stop here not because I don't have considerably more to write, but out of deference to Ed's desire that we keep stuff "short." This is only relatively short. Needless to say, we'll have to respectfully, yet quite strongly, agree to disagree.

"Let's say W builds a fence. What makes you think that would stop Mexicans from crossing?"

It's been PROVEN to work already! In the san Diego sector, the fence cut border crossing s 95% from abouve 600,000 crossings to only 18,000.

"You think Juan and Maria are just going to look at the fence then turn away?"

95% reduction, letting the border patrol have more effectiveness as they have to chase down fewer crossers.

"If BORDER GUARDS WITH GUNS does not deter them, a fence will not." Huh? you mean Border Guards with guns who get 12 years in jail for merely injuring a drug smuggler and are told not to use them except in self-defense? Not mcuh deterrent there.

I dont want illegal immigrants killed. Our current open borders situation though is killing hundreds, many of whom die in the desert when they do stupid things or when they are left by coyotes. A border fence is a very COMPASSIONATE solution as it doesnt shoot anybody, it will only injure you if you try something stupid and it will greatly reduce the numbers of illegals who try crossing in trackless ungaurded desert and end up getting themselves killed.