Captain's Quarters -

If only someone could whip up some charts and graphs that point to jihadis as a primary source of global warming. That's the only way I can foresee the libs supporting our fight.

This isn't really new I don't think. I remember back in October 2001, shortly after we went into Afghanistan that there was talk of quagmire and defeat. Afghanistan is only the "good" war in comparison to Iraq.

I have concluded that for some people there is nothing, simply nothing worth fighting for, that the only way to end any war we are in is with an American defeat and if the conditions on the ground don't naturally lead to that conclusion, then the Abercombies of our world will seek to make it happen otherwise.

After reading this all I can say is the Congress is Pathetic. What a bunch of freaking pansys.

Once they voted to send the troops into battle, they are obligated to see it thru. No changing your stance, you owe the troops unflinching support. You don't send us in to a fight and then pull the rug out. Wars end in one of two ways, we win or we lose. That's it. No cut and run, No victory in defeat, you win or you lose.

Herkeng USAF (ret)
2nd Generation Legal American

After reading this all I can say is the Congress is Pathetic. What a bunch of freaking pansys.

Once they voted to send the troops into battle, they are obligated to see it thru. No changing your stance, you owe the troops unflinching support. You don't send us in to a fight and then pull the rug out. Wars end in one of two ways, we win or we lose. That's it. No cut and run, No victory in defeat, you win or you lose.

Herkeng USAF (ret)
2nd Generation Legal American

I wonder what the Demos limit on casualities in Darfur would be?

This crowd has gone from "Blame America First" to "Defeat America First".

Afghanistan has always been a fractious "country" but it has been really torn apart over the last twenty years. It is going to take quite a while to knit it back together into some semblence of a nation -- and one where terrorists aren't able to use it as a base of operations.

Such an attack could very easily have led to a nuclear exchange with Pevez Musharraf.

Why would this be a bad thing? India's been itching to pull the trigger on the Paki's for years, too.

You're not seriously suggesting that Pakistan could target New York / Chicago / LA, are you? So who, exactly, would an "exchange" involve?

Bozo Ed stateth:

"The real story is that Democrats do not have the stomach to fight wars to victory."

No dipshit. the real story is Democrats don't thnk all wars are cause and worth winning. Unlike Reichthuglicons - who have never opposed any war - no matter how illegal or inane - Democrats have brains and use them to determine if BushCo was full of shit when he invented WMD/ mushroom clouds and all the other lies and pushed the US to illegally invade Iraq, or not.

"They will eventually start undermining the war in Afghanistan the way they have in Iraq,"

they've had 6 yrs to do so - and they haven't yet. But guess what moron? Bush and his minions have sure tried to undermine success in Aphganistan!! the very act of illegally invading Iraqnam ensured this! Bush and his minions are our worst enemies WRT to utter failure - both in Afganistan and Iraqnam.

Thank Reichbugs. "doing a heck of a job"!

"issuing defeatist analyses to prove that we're losing"

blaiming the messenger to your own incompetence Captain? When will you pussies ever own up to your own failures?

- no matter, keep blaiming Democrats four YOUR failures - I'm sure it is a winning policy for gaining the popular votes in 2008.

- better yet play the Cheney game - just shove that pinhead of yours deep deep underground and play Ostrich, Iraq is a total success, nothin but puppydogs and balloons!!

keep up the great work Captain! - we have those "trrists" on the ropes any minute now!

-----onward rode the 500!!

Bozo Ed stateth:

"The real story is that Democrats do not have the stomach to fight wars to victory."

No dipshit. the real story is Democrats don't thnk all wars have a just cause and are worth winning. Unlike Reichthuglicons - who have never opposed any war - no matter how illegal or inane - Democrats have brains and use them to determine if BushCo was full of shit when he invented WMD/ mushroom clouds and all the other lies and pushed the US to illegally invade Iraq, or not.

"They will eventually start undermining the war in Afghanistan the way they have in Iraq,"

they've had 6 yrs to do so - and they haven't yet. But guess what moron? Bush and his minions have sure tried to undermine success in Afganistan!! the very act of illegally invading Iraqnam ensured this! Bush and his minions are our worst enemies WRT to utter failure - both in Afganistan and Iraqnam.

Thank Reichbugs. "doing a heck of a job"!

"issuing defeatist analyses to prove that we're losing"

blaiming the messenger to your own incompetence Captain? When will you pussies ever own up to your own failures?

- no matter, keep blaiming Democrats four YOUR failures - I'm sure it is a winning policy for gaining the popular votes in 2008.

- better yet play the Cheney game - just shove that pinhead of yours deep deep underground and play Ostrich, Iraq is a total success, nothin but puppydogs and balloons!!

keep up the great work Captain! - we have those "trrists" on the ropes any minute now!

-----onward rode the 500!!

Bozo Ed stateth:

"The real story is that Democrats do not have the stomach to fight wars to victory."

No dipshit. the real story is Democrats don't thnk all wars are cause and worth winning. Unlike Reichthuglicons - who have never opposed any war - no matter how illegal or inane - Democrats have brains and use them to determine if BushCo was full of shit when he invented WMD/ mushroom clouds and all the other lies and pushed the US to illegally invade Iraq, or not.

"They will eventually start undermining the war in Afghanistan the way they have in Iraq,"

they've had 6 yrs to do so - and they haven't yet. But guess what moron? Bush and his minions have sure tried to undermine success in Aphganistan!! the very act of illegally invading Iraqnam ensured this! Bush and his minions are our worst enemies WRT to utter failure - both in Afganistan and Iraqnam.

Thank Reichbugs. "doing a heck of a job"!

"issuing defeatist analyses to prove that we're losing"

blaiming the messenger to your own incompetence Captain? When will you pussies ever own up to your own failures?

- no matter, keep blaiming Democrats four YOUR failures - I'm sure it is a winning policy for gaining the popular votes in 2008.

- better yet play the Cheney game - just shove that pinhead of yours deep deep underground and play Ostrich, Iraq is a total success, nothin but puppydogs and balloons!!

keep up the great work Captain! - we have those "trrists" on the ropes any minute now!

-----onward rode the 500!!

Well said Gaffo.

Worth repeating.

These neocons always refuse to accept responsibility for their own incompetence.

From Iraq to the forgetful Attorney General to their corrupt politicians. They always say it is someone else's fault.

It's time for the adults to make the neoncons fess up.

Hey wait, guys. Was that "patriotic dissent" or was that "supporting the troops?" I'm confused.

Why don't you MoveOn?

Hey wait, guys. Was that "patriotic dissent" or was that "supporting the troops?" I'm confused.

Why don't you MoveOn?

"Democrats have brains and use them"

as someone said "they've had 6 yrs to do so - and they haven't yet." BTW "eventually" means "they haven't yet".

The minor wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are effective, affordable, and sustainable. We have not failed, and just because you, or a majority of people answering polls, or even a majority of Congress say otherwise, doesn't make it any less true.

Why do you guys encourage the cowards? Best to ignore them.

Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 06/25/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.

No war without the popular support of the American People is winable.

Did Vietnam teach you nothing? - oh ya, that was all the MSM and Dems fault too. silly me.

BTW durnig Nam we had the DRAFT. Today we need the DRAFT to win this one, yet we refuse to impliment it.

Many General FAR FAR more versed in military matters are telling you and me that the military will be BROKEN within three years if we try to sustain the current levels.

So keep doing what you're are doing Ostrich - 2008 you will get 10-percent of the populars vote and a broken military.

"doing a heck of a job" there Republicons. keep doig wath your doing Ostriches - PLEASE ;-).

Ignore the previous comment, Link Corrected

Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 06/26/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.

Given enough time liberals like gaffo and continuum always seem to show their true colors. Piss-yellow, with a tinge of transparent ignorance. Gaffo's writing and spelling ability certainly testifies to a higher intelligence.

Gaffo:

Methinks you are one of those islamic infiltrators we have been hearing about.

You might want to brush up on your history before commenting further.

Did somebody just lift a manhole cover and let the sewage run down the street?

Good grief Cap'n, I thought we had some sort of minimal standards around here. I mean, I can deal with the fact that some folks have strong opinions and I really don't mind the brain-dead ad homonim jibes and Lord knows I'm not exactly pristine in my own expression, but can't we at least grow up to the point of leaving the bathroom language behind? I can read this kind of stuff off the stalls in any barroom toilet!

But afghanistan has taken longer to fight than World War II and Iraq even. We've botched the operations there. It's cost more than vietnam. Wouldn't that money be better spent builidng schools? It's a diversion from the real war in terror as the Taliban are in Pakistan and Al Qaeda is in Iraq. Oh wait.... but we sent them there! So therefore we can't fight them there We have to fight them in afghanistan.And Bush lied! And its all about the Unocol pipeline in afghanistan. No blood for oil! It's just a diversion from the real war on terror in....er, Bush is the terrorist!

And did I mention its a quagmire? QUAG-MIRE!!!!!

Captain,
It is always amazing but not surprising to see the dhimmies show their true self. to the extent that the lefty sentmients exposed here by goffo and johnnymozart prevail, we will lose our freedom in the world. Their combinaztion ofhistorical illiteracy, willful ignorance, and thinly veiled hatred of their country makes them truly dangerous.
They are proof of the idea that a true degenerate is one who is too degenerate to recognize or fight an enemy.
instead these are the clowns convinced the world is facing a weather catastrophe and that Bush is some sort of dictator - both beliefs require levels of stupidy breath taking in their shallowness.

Wasn't it "onward rode the *six* hundred"? Perhaps Gaffo read the discounted version of the Charge of the Light Brigade.

Yes sir, Skipper...I believe 'twas.

Lew has some good points...I often wonder why you put up with so many nutjobs. I mean, the shyster is a perfect example. He “truly believes” Bush/Cheney were active participants in the 9/11 attacks…and he supports the VIOLENT overthrow of our elected government. Don’t see how you can call any “engagement” with them anything more that a complete waste of time. However, it’s your ship, Skipper. Your shipmates will muster with the scallywags if required. But you may have to…from time to time…edit/delete/censor my comments. Ignoring them can only work for a short time. Eventually, vermin need to be dealt with…just as do Lunatics.

Hunter, I agree with everything except the part about J.Mozart...he was being sarcastic.

Like all moonbats, gaffo has trouble keeping facts and wishful thinking straight. He also has trouble counting anything higher than 10 (fingers), or on a good day, 20 (fingers and toes) -- so what's a little difference between 600 and 500 between friends. In doing a semi-quote, he's probably ranked top of his class in Liberal Dunce Class and is waiting for applause at his erudition. (Why am I positively certain that gaffo is a boy child?)

This goes to something I've mentioned before: As a society, we've become squeamish at the thought of taking casualties. I caught someone on FOX--his name escapes me right now--who argued that we seem to no longer have the stomach to act as a Great Power. I'm coming more and more to accept that he is right--at least as far as most of our political and cultural elites are concerned. It takes a willingness to stand up for your beliefs and to pay the price--in lives, in treasure, in sweat--if you wish to stand up in the world as a major power. To a large extent, this squeamishness probably has come about due to our extended period of peace and prosperity--over sixty years since the end of WW2 and nearly 80 since the Stock Market Crash. Thankfully, we've never really endured hard times--and I pray we don't; but that extended period of affluence--something almost unheard of in human history--has left its impact on our psyche. Then, of course we have the lingering effects of the 60s, most notably the Counterculture--which has left behind a, I'll be polite and say mixed, legacy.

As regards the left-side commentators here, to be honest, I usually enjoy reading Tom Shipley's posts. I disagree with about 80 to 90 percent of what he has to say, but as rule he engages in rational debate, which is always welcome. There are others on the left side who post here whom I can say the same about. As for gaffo--anyone who doesn't know his or her Tennyson automatically loses points with me. Add to that, I get the impression that he hasn't had a single course on Civics or history--or if he has, he's gotten nothing but swill, and he's obviously never taken logic or rhetoric--but I blame our educational system for that. As far as I'm concerned, Gaffo can go back to his X-Box, but, speaking as a conservative, I hope that the Tom Shipleys who post here will continue to do so. Thesis plus Antithesis equals Synthesis.

I agree about Tom Shipley, as well as James Hymas, Ron Beasley, Matt from Augsberg, Grace Kelly, and a number of other well-spoken liberals who post here. Only a handful embarass themselves here. I love actual debate, rather than name-calling.

One option on the "we would have been out of Afghanistan by now if we had not invaded Iraq" idea is that, if the US hadn't gone into Iraq and split the attention of the "anti-war" movement, they would already have forced the US to give up on Afganistan.

As a member of the military, let me say that gaffo is wildly off the mark. We DO NOT want a draft. And has he not noticed we have met recruiting and retention goals for the past nearly 2 years?

But you don't hear that on the news b/c it doesn't fit the narrative.

Russ - so in otherwords the Generals are full of shit, and you and Yell know all about military readiness?

Good correction CE - so I'm not the brightest bulb here. I'm the more realistic at least.

But go ahead - dream that impssobile dream, the American People will no longer support the Iraqnam folly while you and your shipmates continue to slid into the dustbin if irrelivancy (kicking and screaming "gold stanard!" "temperance!" etc........) byebye!

but continue to play Ostrich - while folks on your ship jump off (Lugar for one).....................

you folks have perfected that game. by 2010 there will be 10 of you left.

peace - after Iraqnam.

And the young men and women who enlist and more importantly re-enlist, truly are our best and brightest. Having said that, I do think we need to consider increasing the size of our regular forces--primarily Army and Marines--with an emphasis on recruiting into MOS's such as Military Police and others that are being primarily filled by reserve and National Guard components. Reserves should be just that--reserves--to be called on when necessary and demobilized as soon as possible. I think we can increase the size of our forces while at the same time maintaining both the quality of recruits and keeping the military a voluntary military. There is absolutely no need for conscription at this time.

As regards Afghanistan, we've actually been doing rather well. We blew apart the vaunted Taliban spring offensive before it even got started and we're knocking off prime leadership targets. The Taliban's reversion to terrorism is actually a good sign for us--it means that they can't successfully conduct conventional operations. Our big problem is the duplicity of Pakistan's military and intelligence services and Iran supplying the Taliban with weapons.

"Many General FAR FAR more versed in military matters are telling you and me that the military will be BROKEN within three years if we try to sustain the current levels."

Every time you read something like that, add three words: Without More Money. That is why they publicly make such comments. They can be punished for doing a Billy Mitchell and directly lobbying for more money. They can't be faulted for pointing out the worst case scenario of an existing trend.

MattHelm, I agree with everything you said as far as you go.

The fact that we are doing as well as we are is testament to the quality of the people we've sent to do it. They are truly incredible, from top to bottom. The problem I have is that I think they are brilliantly and courageously executing an ineffective strategy. In short, we grabbed two minor players in the terrorism game, Iraq and Afghanistan, and then sat down to rebuild them into non-terrorism supporting nation-states. The reasons why we chose those targets, rather than the real one, have more to do with convenience and opportunity than anything else and logically derive from Rumsfeld's doctrine of strict economy of force.

The point is that the real problem lives in Tehran, and not in Baghdad or Kabul or Damascus or anywhere else. Until we are politically prepared to assume a seriously offensive strategy toward Iran, then we are going to be stuck with a permanent defensive strategy in Iraq and Afghanistan for as long as Iran chooses.

Think of it as if we had invaded France in 1944 and stopped at the Rhine in September, and assumed a defensive posture toward Germany while we rebuilt France. We'd still be fighting in Europe.

Gaffo said,
they've had 6 yrs to do so (undermine the war in afghanistan) - and they haven't yet. But guess what moron? Bush and his minions have sure tried to undermine success in Aphganistan!! the very act of illegally invading Iraqnam ensured this! Bush and his minions are our worst enemies WRT to utter failure - both in Afganistan and Iraqnam.

Does that mean that all democrats who aren't undermining the war in afghanistan are in fact chicken hawks for not serving there and yet allowing others sons and daughters to be sent in their place? Does that mean they are war mongers too? Or does that mean that it like the vast majority of their arguments is completely vapid and unserious?

oh gaffo, you're so right. Those of us who have been on the ground know absolutely nothing. Those Generals are all acting out of a sense of duty, and not out of a desire to get on television or run for President in their own right someday.

If they had any balls at all, they would have resigned and protested while in uniform, not afterwards when they have a guaranteed pension.

And thanks for ignoring the FACT that we are meeting ercruiting and retention goals. Also, retention for units IN IRAQ is around 135% of the goal. Yeah, we all hate it...

As an infantry officer, I DO NOT want draftees. They would be unmotivated and provide me with an unnecessary headache. Besides which, it would take 2 years from initiation until you saw the first draftee on the battlefield(gotta convene draft boards, select, put them through Basic and AIT, then undergo small unit collective training at home station, etc.).

Pray tell me where your vast military expertise comes from? Have you seen a lot of movies or something?

Wanna know how most of my soldiers and I feel? Betrayed, by people like you.

Russ - I have no military experience. I have heard several Generals and even those in the field on TV say that the "Surge" is non-sustianable and that the military will become "broke" in three years if we simply "stay the current course".

You claim otherwise - and that those who dissagree with you and in uniform are liars. Take the issue up with them if you beleive they are liars, and not me. I'm relaying the messege that your superiors are telling the American People on public television and the major networks.

I ask you if you are impartial as well - you are in the feild - men's lives are at stake - men who welfare you are charged to lookl after to the best of your ability. Can you be impartial in such a position and say that "all of progressing toward success". Conversly might it be hard for you to come to the conclusion that the men under your command may die for a unworthy cause and unworthy war compared to civilians in America how do not hold men's lives in their shoulders?

As you know many (most?) Vietnam vets came to the latter conclusion - both while in the field and more-so after coming home. I suspect the same with be the case for Iraqnam.

As for resigning in protest before retiring with full pay - I AGREE FULLY - they have no honour (are cowards in truth). One can resign in protest as long as it is done in good conscience and as a perceived duty to upholding the United States Constitution with honour, but none of the Generals that I know of who are now advicating leaving Iraq did so.

I understand why you would not want draftees. Hell we all know there were fragging incidents in Nam due to draftees just wanting to get out/flipping out.

I bring up the draft because numerically that seems to be the only way we can sustain high troop levels permanently. I know we will never do this because the American People's will to win is very low at this point and it would be political suicide to impliment the draft.

I say again - without popular support here at home on war can be won. the reason there is no popular support is because most of us reject that idea that Iraqi insergence pose a significant threat to the United States and also that Iraq is now in the low level civil war and so it is a "domestic matter" now.

I add also that many think Bush (Cheney & Co) willfully promoted and distirted "evidence" to support the push to war nearly a full years before we even went to war - and some such a suspicous beginning it didn't take much for a large minority to form early on over the Iraq War 3-yrs ago. Since the last 3-yrs that minority is now a majority.

I'm sorry you feel betrayed by the majority of Americans - but we feel you are giving support to the very lies that many of us believe Cheney promoted in going to war illegally - we think the Iraq War is unconstitution and a violation of Article 6 paragraph 2. And you in the field are aiding in that violation of our Liberty (Constitution). the Rule of Law must trump all Sir. We live in a Democratic Republic not an Emperial Empire.

The American person does not have a duty to support you or your mission (though doing so is noble if the mission is legal and just), in fact the opposite if your action aids in the subversion of our Constitional Rule of Law. As per my employment I have made such an oath - to uphold our Consituton, as have you Sir. I will not be an asshole and say you are a traitor by not honouring you oath. I suspect you honestly beleive in the mission handed to you and that the Iraq war is legal and Constitution and that performing your mission does not violate your oath.

Kindly give me the same credit from the other side Sir!

though I cannot in good concience support you - I also do not wish you harm. May you and those in your care return home safely (and soon).

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/26/poll.iraq.schneider/index.html

gaffo,

I give you credit for at least posting a thoughtful response.

But I still find your argument full of holes. First, you claim we were "lied" into war. Please point out the "lie" to me. We were mistaken in WMDs, but a lie is an intentional untruth. I may say that I heard that Kevin Garnett was going to be traded to the Lakers. Now it turns out he is not. Did I lie? No, I got it wrong. That happens in the Intel world. Also, let's not forget that Iraq is a country larger than Texas, with lots of desert. My brigade found a buried bio-weapons trailer(sterilized, but able to be brought back into operation with the right agents) buried in Mosul 35 meters underground. Took a tip from a local and the use of seismic equipment to find. Bet you never heard about that on the news, though.

We also know that Saddam used chemical weapons on the Kurds. Where did those WMDs go? Additionally, the President NEVER said Iraq was an imminent threat. He said we cannot wait until it becomes imminent.

Additionally, how is the war "illegal?" Congress voted to give the President authorization to conduct it. So please tell me how it was "illegal."

Having been to Iraq, I will go to my grave knowing we did the right thing, whether we find WMDs or not. I'll never forget the boy in Karbala I saw whose foot was permanently sideways, smashed by the Fedeyeen since his parents tried to reuse them permission to use their house as a weapons cache. Or the parents of the girls in Sadr City who had been raped by Uday - thousands of them. He would go by and grab them off the streets on Wednesday and return them on Friday night. Or the mass graves I helped unearth north of Karbala, and the grief on the faces of those involved.

You keep thinking it was immoral if you want. I think that sitting idly by while rape and genocide occur is wrong, and I'm glad I did something to stop it. Yes, we should have done it sooner, but we did finally do it.

I feel betrayed by a press that has NEVER been honest with the situation on the ground. When I got back, my folks showed me the news articles and stuff from when I was there. The whole tone of the invasion phase seemed to be "We're losing, we're losing...what do you mean we won?!?!"

The reason we have lost the support of the people is not due to the cause, but due to the constant stream of negative reporting. When was the last time you saw an MSM story about anything positive in Iraq. Positive stories have to be so monumental that they cannot be ignored(like free elections). And I have no problem with bad news being reported - the American people have the right to know that stuff. But to ignore the good going on - whether it's reconstruction or killing of AQI - is irresponsible. I had the opportunity to question a fairly prominent ABC news reporter about this, and he said, "Well, we don't report that 60,000 airplanes take off and land each day either, because it's what's expected." I was floored, since people in this country have the context of airplanes, but not the context of normality in Iraq.

Due to press coverage, there is no patience on the home front. Imagine the state of the world if this was the tone after Kasserine Pass, Bataan, Meuse-Argonnes, Cold Harbor, Fredricksburg, Churubusco, Bladensburg, Elizabethtown, etc.

Back to the main point of what the Captain said - calls for withdrawal from Afghanistan. They will increase when AQ shifts its main effort to Afghanistan when Iraq is cleared. They will use Pakistan as a base of ops and we'll hafta send more into Afghanistan. Then you'll call for a pullout there. Then they'll follow us home, whether it be in 50 days or 50 years.

You do not want peace - you want to be spared war, as if the absence of war was the same as peace. It isn't. True peace is not merely the absence of conflict; it is the presence of justice. And history has proven conclusively that the naive, wishing for peace, has always been the surest possible way to encourage an aggressor. It takes two to make peace, but only one to make war.

Finally, the troop level problems are a result of the "peace dividend" of the early 1990s when we cut a force we supposedly didn't need. Even with a draft, you can't rebuild military numbers overnight. It takes 5-7 years to re-grow the force, b/c it needs more than privates. You have to train the NCOs and mid level field grade officers required to train and run that force. You think our numbers are too low? Well, since we've been meeting recruiting and retention goals for 22 months, petition Congress to increase the force ceiling levels.

And I have not seen a single active duty general say we are not winning. I have seen General Petraeus say it will take about 10 years, but that's not a surprise since it typically and historically takes 10-13 years to quell an insurgency. But to do that, you'd actually have to be patient and listen to those of us who know what the hell we're talking about. I don't tell a teacher that he or she should teach a year's worth of material in a month, or which textbooks to use. I don't tell a banker which formulas he or she should use to calculate interest. What makes you think you know what it takes to make a military operation successful?

Either put us in to win, or stay the hell out, but this halfway garbage is exactly why our enemies think we are soft. Yes, I will say that the public has an obligation to choose one way or the other, and before we go in. But you put us in those situations, deny us the time and resources required for victory, and then wonder why we feel betrayed?

The Left has forever lost my trust due exactly to trying to betray us twice in less than 40 years.

Russ,

Thank you and your men for your service, and never forget that most of us actually have your back here in the States.

"gaffo,

I give you credit for at least posting a thoughtful response."

Thank you

"But I still find your argument full of holes. First, you claim we were "lied" into war. Please point out the "lie" to me."

there is no "smoking gun" - just a mountian of biased "evidence" - such a the downing street memo, ignoring evidence that did not fit the pre-determined action to go to war.

Basically when War becomes the first choice instead of the last resort (and this was obvious to millions a good 8-months before we actually invaded Iraq), there is something rotton in Denmark. i.e a "rush to war", cherry picking "evidience that supported war and ignoring the vastly more numorous evidence that did not support an act of war, the rhetoric about the mushroom clouds and all that fear fear fear shit the administration shovel us, and the constant IMPLIED link between Iraq and 911, no bid contract to Cheney's former company, and finally the drifting REASONS we invaded in the first place. first it was to uphold UN resolutions, then it was WMD, then it was WMD "programs", then it was "Saddam was a bad man" (big fucking deal - alot of bad men around), then all that building a democracy crap started and the more naive of us bought it hook line and sinker! - the rest of us just hurled and few times.

All the above shady behavior is more than enough to suggest some sort of guilt in the truthiness department.

"We were mistaken in WMDs, but a lie is an intentional untruth."

Look - its both, we thought he PROBABLY had WMD - but we didn't ahve proof one way or the other - BUSH ONLY WANTED PROOF HE DID at the very least, or just have no evidence one way or the other and pour on the fear to justify the war he WANTED. Had we had proof that Saddam had NO WMDs I have no doubt that Bush/Cheney would never have let that go public and we would have invaded Iraqnam anyway.

They wanted this war and formed the evidence around the policy - just as the downing street memo stated.

THAT is the TRUTH of what happened bubba.

"I may say that I heard that Kevin Garnett was going to be traded to the Lakers. Now it turns out he is not. Did I lie? No, I got it wrong.

What Cheney/Bush and Wolfy/Feith/Libby did was much moer the an innocent "get it wrong". They decided to go to war and then when out of their way to find evidence to support that action and willfully ignored all the more previlent evidence that did not support invading Iraq.

"That happens in the Intel world. Also, let's not forget that Iraq is a country larger than Texas, with lots of desert. My brigade found a buried bio-weapons trailer(sterilized, but able to be brought back into operation with the right agents) buried in Mosul 35 meters underground. Took a tip from a local and the use of seismic equipment to find. Bet you never heard about that on the news, though."

I heard about some old Sarin/Mustard gas they had in some shells dating to the Iraq-Iran war...............totally useless junk sitting for 30 yrs and buried. big whoop. that is not an active arsinal nor a active program. - its scrap. looks like the sanctions and UN inspections worked.

Oh ya, Bush kicked the UN inspectors out - not Saddam............why?

"We also know that Saddam used chemical weapons on the Kurds. Where did those WMDs go?"

well - buried as useless scrap of course!! - like what you said you found yourself!

"Additionally, the President NEVER said Iraq was an imminent threat. He said we cannot wait until it becomes imminent."

All the more reason it was utterly unConstitutional and illegal. US Constitution only alows the US to invade another soveriegn nation if Congress Declairs War or the nation under question is an immediate threat to our survival.

there is no other kind legal invasion under our Constitution. "gathering threat" don't cut the mustard.

"Additionally, how is the war "illegal?"

It violates the United States Constitution's Supremacy clause. when Bush formally and publically stated on March 18th2003 that he was invading Iraq to uphold the UN resolutions 687 and 1441. Sorry but the UN Charter is clear. NO MEMBER STATE CAN UNILATERALLY INVADED ANOTHER MEMBER STATE without the immediate threat qualifcation (a threat you yourself claim Bush never made!!).

the only way our action would not ahve violated our OWN Constitution wuld be if we had not violated the UN Charter, and that was only if the Security Council had given the US permission to invade. Oh ya guess what, Bush had brow-beaten Germany, Russia, France, Chile and Mexico to go along with him and vote "yes" for the US to take action - when nearly all the above told him to fuck himself and that they would VOTE any vote to allow the US to invade - the Bog King CANCELLED THE SC MEETING!!!!

So Iraqnam continues to be in violation of Article 6 Paragraph 2 of our United States Constitution. Bush commited an act of Treason in my book and yes he should be in leg irons over it right now - or in the company of Saddam.

"Congress voted to give the President authorization to conduct it. So please tell me how it was "illegal."

Congressional vote was void - all it did was give the president permission to invade. But Congress does not have the legal authority to give permission to uphold UN resolutions!!! ONLY THE UN Security Council has such authority!!

If Bush wanted Iraqnam to be legal he should never have invaded in the name of UN resolutions which he has zero authority to enforce unilaterally.

"Having been to Iraq, I will go to my grave knowing we did the right thing, whether we find WMDs or not. I'll never forget the boy in Karbala I saw whose foot was permanently sideways, smashed by the Fedeyeen since his parents tried to reuse them permission to use their house as a weapons cache. Or the parents of the girls in Sadr City who had been raped by Uday - thousands of them. He would go by and grab them off the streets on Wednesday and return them on Friday night. Or the mass graves I helped unearth north of Karbala, and the grief on the faces of those involved."

Well - in 20 yrs when we have failed in Iraq and caused a civil war which will result in 10 times the number of killed than Saddam could ever have done - you may reconsider that viewpoint.

"You keep thinking it was immoral if you want."

not immoral - moral, immoral is irrelivant. ILLEGAL and IMPRACTICAL is the only relivancy here.

we ain't talkig about Church we are talking about War - which is a brutal extension of National Policy to maximize National security. Morality has little to no place in such matters.

"I think that sitting idly by while rape and genocide occur is wrong, and I'm glad I did something to stop it. Yes, we should have done it sooner, but we did finally do it."

US is not the world's policeman - and when we try to be we get smacked back. all nations should mind their own business. I am not my brother's keeper - you are not the Iraqi's keeper. Iraqis have their own problems that only they have the ability to solve. We lack the ability to solve it for them. in otherwords "Gunboat democracy" is an utter failure, not to mention a total oxymoron. alot like 1984's "war is peace".

"I feel betrayed by a press that has NEVER been honest with the situation on the ground. When I got back, my folks showed me the news articles and stuff from when I was there. The whole tone of the invasion phase seemed to be "We're losing, we're losing...what do you mean we won?!?!"

have you never heard of winning all the battles and loosing the war? ok so the MSM is all lies. Get back to me when we have the shining City on a Hill in Iraqnam will ya?

Soon I'm sure.

"The reason we have lost the support of the people is not due to the cause, but due to the constant stream of negative reporting. When was the last time you saw an MSM story about anything positive in Iraq."

3 days ago - on Jim Lear's New hour. talk about all the success the army has had in Diyala provence with the new allience with the sheiks.

one perfect example.

"Positive stories have to be so monumental that they cannot be ignored(like free elections). And I have no problem with bad news being reported - the American people have the right to know that stuff. But to ignore the good going on - whether it's reconstruction or killing of AQI - is irresponsible. I had the opportunity to question a fairly prominent ABC news reporter about this, and he said, "Well, we don't report that 60,000 airplanes take off and land each day either, because it's what's expected." I was floored, since people in this country have the context of airplanes, but not the context of normality in Iraq."

We have had 6 yrs and we are not seeing any progress - americans have run out of patience. it is that simple. no MSM consparacy.

"Due to press coverage, there is no patience on the home front. "

- you are seting up a false target - the MSM. get a grip. the People are fed up with the no progress and they don't need the MSM to tell them what to think!! (unless you are a Rush-bot - most of us can think for ourselves thankfully however).

"Imagine the state of the world if this was the tone after Kasserine Pass, Bataan, Meuse-Argonnes, Cold Harbor, Fredricksburg, Churubusco, Bladensburg, Elizabethtown, etc."

and yet you lack to ask the relivant question!!!!!!!!!

WHY IS THE TONE DIFFERENT THIS TIME COMPARED TO THE ABOVE EVENTS!!!!!!?????????

most people never bought the "gathering threat" crap and think we got dupped into this one by a shyster. THAT IS WHY, and no amout of MSM blaime game is gonna "fix" that fact.

"Back to the main point of what the Captain said - calls for withdrawal from Afghanistan. They will increase when AQ shifts its main effort to Afghanistan when Iraq is cleared. They will use Pakistan as a base of ops and we'll hafta send more into Afghanistan. Then you'll call for a pullout there. Then they'll follow us home, whether it be in 50 days or 50 years."

follow us home on what!!?? by dogpaddle? lol - now you just sound paranoid.
time to duck and cover!!

"You do not want peace - you want to be spared war,"

I want to be spared of DUMB wars - which Iraqnam and Veitnam are/were.
You see? unlike Rightwingers - ninnies who have NEVER SEEN a war they didn't like - we smell shit when the reasons for war are full of shit.

We actually question authority and think for ourselves (you know like adults). We dont just swallow what der leader shovels us and quote the "ours is not to question why but to do or die" mantra.

That is what separates the Right from the Left.

"as if the absence of war was the same as peace."

The absence of DUMB wars is the same as peace Bubba.

"It isn't. True peace is not merely the absence of conflict; it is the presence of justice. "

Oh gawd - Red alert!!!!!! we got a pie in the sky dreamer on our hands!!!!!

Grow up youngen.

True Peace is securing our National interests with the least amount of blowback. That usually means play the balence of power game - support Saddam to contain Iran, free trade, diplomatic relations and mutual agreements of mutual benefit, and minding our own business when prudent.

"And history has proven conclusively that the naive, wishing for peace, has always been the surest possible way to encourage an aggressor."

LOL - you are hillarious! you are speaking of yourself and don't even know it!!!

"War on Injustice" - boy oh boy. You gonna make the world Just one tank at a time bubba???

lol - gee you just might do it in a couple of millinia.

It takes two to make peace, but only one to make war.

Finally, the troop level problems are a result of the "peace dividend" of the early 1990s when we cut a force we supposedly didn't need. Even with a draft, you can't rebuild military numbers overnight. It takes 5-7 years to re-grow the force, b/c it needs more than privates. You have to train the NCOs and mid level field grade officers required to train and run that force. You think our numbers are too low? Well, since we've been meeting recruiting and retention goals for 22 months, petition Congress to increase the force ceiling levels.

And I have not seen a single active duty general say we are not winning. I have seen General Petraeus say it will take about 10 years, but that's not a surprise since it typically and historically takes 10-13 years to quell an insurgency. But to do that, you'd actually have to be patient and listen to those of us who know what the hell we're talking about. I don't tell a teacher that he or she should teach a year's worth of material in a month, or which textbooks to use. I don't tell a banker which formulas he or she should use to calculate interest. What makes you think you know what it takes to make a military operation successful?

Either put us in to win, or stay the hell out, but this halfway garbage is exactly why our enemies think we are soft. Yes, I will say that the public has an obligation to choose one way or the other, and before we go in. But you put us in those situations, deny us the time and resources required for victory, and then wonder why we feel betrayed?

The Left has forever lost my trust due exactly to trying to betray us twice in less than 40 years.

Good luck on that War on Unjustice thing!!!

lol.