Captain's Quarters -

Typical Russian incompetence.

Did Putin even KNOW what his air force was doing that night?

Okay, I suspect he does. Then how p*ss*d must be be that they couldn't even do it?

*he

Tell me again why Russia has veto authority at the UN. The Soviet Union owns that trump card. But the USSR died nearly twenty years ago, and this rump entity called Russia inherited the mighty Nyet. What if Russia disintegrates? I suppose then the UN veto power will devolve to the Grand Duchy of Muscovy.

Info here on the missile in question.

Raduga Kh-58 (AS-11 Kilter) The Kh-58U missile (Article 112, alias D7) was built to replace the Kh-28, first of all for Su-24M aircraft, and was then used as basic weapon of MiG-25BM and other aircraft. Target indication and guidance head programming prior to the launch are done by either an on-board (Su-24M) "Fantazmagoria" [Phantasmagoria] set or a "Vyyuga" [Snowstorm] set suspended in a container. The probability of hit within a 20 m radius around an operating radar station is 80 percent. The Kh-58 version was equipped with an active radar head. X -58 - aircraft antiradar cruise missile with the guidance system PRLGSN for the front aviation.
     Engine - RDTT - SOLID-PROPELLANT ROCKET ENGINE (tail section of the glider).
     Fuselage - cutoff, all-metal, welded construction, with the X-shaped wing arrangement and the controlled tail assembly.
     The quick-disconnect fittings of wedge-shaped- key construction are used on the joints of aggregates. Basic material: OTYA-Y (wing, tail assembly), steel E0KHGSA (structural assembly), ATM -9 and sealing compound UCH-2Y (external heat insulation, established by the method of hot pressing).
     Wing and the tail assembly of all-welded construction. Skin and rib from OTYA-Y. Front fairing with the riveted radio-transparent part, which carries internal landing place under the equipment beam.
     The external surface of the consoles of wing, tail assembly, fairing, the part of the section BCH and the surface of the engine of rocket are painted with the enamel of aluminum color. To the remaining surface of fuselage, which has heat shield, the layer of sealing compound is substituted. Fairing has inside heat-shielding coating.

Raduga Kh-58 (AS-11 Kilter)
Specifications
Contractor
Entered Service
Total length 4.80 m
Diameter 0.38m
Wingspan 1.17 m
Weight 640 kg
Warhead Weight 149 kg
Propulsion
Maximum Speed Mach 3.6
Maximum effective range 120 km
Guidance mode
Single-shot hit probability 80%

"Tell me again why Russia has veto authority at the UN. The Soviet Union owns that trump card. But the USSR died nearly twenty years ago, and this rump entity called Russia inherited the mighty Nyet. What if Russia disintegrates? I suppose then the UN veto power will devolve to the Grand Duchy of Muscovy." Posted by: russ at August 8, 2007 5:03 PM

Here is a picture of the missle for comparison.

It looks like Russia is attempting to probe Georgia's defensive capabilities in preparation for an invasion. That's not a good idea on Russia's part.

Thank's for the info, daytrader.

It looks like Russia is attempting to probe Georgia's defensive capabilities in preparation for an invasion. That's not a good idea on Russia's part. Posted by: Ray at August 8, 2007 5:16 PM

Ain't so hot for Georgia either.

Does Pres. Bush really believe he can trust "Vlad,' or is that merely his diplomatic 'belief?' Reagan's dealings with Gorby were, "Trust, but verify," which seems a much more realistic plan to me.

Scale is hard to tell in the Captains photo, but from the one I provided I am looking for 4 quadrant wings from the mid section and there seems to be no evidence of that from his photo.

I am also looking at the proportionality of the wing scale (which shape matches) to barrel body size.

The ratio of wingspan to barrel size is not consistent with that missile based on this photo from my judgment.

The barrel is way to high a percentage.

It will be a slog to figure out what other missile it could really be.

Even though there is only a finite known armament load out for the type of plane specified.

If Georgia is correct, then Russia has apparently decided to play rough in the Caucasus -- and play incompetently at that.

Incompetence and thuggish brutality is the Russian style, whether under the Czars, the Communists, or the new Czar, Putin. We've made errors in Iraq, but they're nothing compared to the bungling ham-handedness of the Russians in Chechnya.

One of the problems with the initial Kh-28 was that it was simply too big to be carried by smaller aircraft, and even larger strike aircraft could only carry one. While the Soviet Union still felt the need for an improved large ARM, resulting in the Kh-58, a smaller ARM was also required.

In parallel with work on what would become the Kh-58, the USSR also developed an ARM variant of the Kh-23 / AS-7 Kerry ASM, designated the "Kh-27". This weapon saw limited service in the late 1970s and early 1980s, but was quickly replaced by the ARM member of the "modular" Kh-25M / AS-10 Kegler ASM.

As mentioned in an earlier chapter, the Kh-25M could be fitted with a range of guidance systems, including a radar-seeking head. The ARM version was known as the "Kh-25MP", and its seeker could lock onto a wide range of Western radars. Apparently NATO was a bit confused by the modular system and gave this variant the entirely new codename of "AS-12 Kegler", even though any field technician could easily convert an AS-10 to an AS-12 or the reverse by swapping the seeker heads.

The Kh-28 was replaced in the early 1980s by the solid-fuel "Kh-58", referred to as the "Kh-24" in early development. The Kh-58 is another big ARM, roughly in the same category as STARM, and is carried by the Sukhoi Su-24 and other large strike aircraft. However, the starting point for the design of the Kh-58 was actually the Anglo-French Martel, though the Soviet weapon is bigger. The Kh-58 has the NATO designation of "AS-11 Kitler".

The Kh-58 has cruciform mid-body wings and tailfins, and is fitted with a seeker allowing it to lock onto a wide range of Western SAM radars. It is equipped with a secondary INS guidance system to keep it on course if it loses lock on a radar emitter.

The initial Kh-58 was followed by the improved "Kh-58U", with longer range and a refined seeker that allows lock-on after launch. A version of the Kh-58U with a simplified seeker designated the "Kh-58E" was exported to a number of Warsaw Pact countries. The Kh-58U still remains an important weapon in the arsenal of the Russian Air Force.

The whole issue here is Georgia wants to join NATO, but Russia has never withdrawn from two provinces.

NATO is insisting that only the full controlled country can join. Russia doesn't want to give up what they are holding since it is a path to shipping ports they want to have and related to their Black Sea fleet.

If Russia has to give that up they will have to find another place to base for Mediterranean operations.

See this excellent article over at American Thinker putting it all together 

In addition the Black Sea coastal area is a favored vacation spot for all the high in power Russian movers and shakers.

There will be a lot of chess moves going on here.

To throw even more into the game, Georgia is one of the proposed sites for the deployment of the ABM missile shield. Part of the gamesmanship is written here.

 Putin's "extraordinary circumstances" are clear: first, he says missile shield in Europe will see through entire Russia's defenses all the way to the Urals; Russia seeks to counter that, but the treaty stands very much in the way. Second, NATO countries have failed to ratify the treaty's 1999 amended version — a failure that Putin insists upsets the balance of forces in Europe. For their part, NATO countries hold that the amended version required that Moscow withdraw troops from Moldova and Georgia, which it hasn't completed, and refuse to ratify until Russia fully complies.

OOPS

Bad link last post here is the right link.

Is anyone else reminded of pictures of downed missiles and rockets the Taliban and Al-Queda have been claiming that they shot out of the sky, fired by America?

I wonderif anyone who's competent to judge has considered whether the nice Georgians might be playing photoshop games, perhaps in an attempt to get the Russians to play nice with their gas lines.

Just to remind everyone: Georgia is the only country besides the United States that is currently increasing its troop levels in IRAQ from 800 to 2000 just to help the USA to fight that Photoshop-savvy Al-Qaida!
Now, having 20 years of professional Photoshop experience, I can tell you – that ain’t no Photoshop job and if anyone really wants to know I can show you on GoogleEarth which storage hangar in Russia that ordnance came from!
I wish you knew better who your friends are and who the liars are!

[i]The missile itself can be seen here, and it doesn't appear to have merely fallen off an airplane by accident.[/i]

Interesting conclusion. Not sure how it could have been reached by simply looking at this photo.

I luv ya Capt, but I think you took too great a jump in logic here -- even if you are ultimately proven correct.

Chomick

My issues I have are with the wreckage.

The supposed missile has wings shaped like the one under the barrel body but has 4 of them around the outside. Those would be midsection wings since the tail control sections are different shaped.

Look at the dimensions I posted above and the ratio of body barrel size to wingspread don't cut it with this picture.

Also look at the picture I linked of a sample missile and you will see the proportions are not consistent.

OK how about posting the digital coordinates for google earth. The all numbers version for cutting and pasting.

Interesting conclusion. Not sure how it could have been reached by simply looking at this photo.

I'm not convinced it's a Kh58, but it could be. It looks like at least one of the wings has broken off, but you can see one of the structural members which used to support it. So it does seem to have large cruciform delta wings. I agree with others that the body diameter seems too large in relation to the fin size, but maybe the photo is deceptive.

Nicholas

Based on the position of the bottom wing touching the ground another wing would have to be pointing out at your face from the barrel body.

There is no evidence on the barrel body of a wing being torn off. It would start from the same point as the trailing edge of the lower wing we see.

Nicholas

A Mach 3 plus missile if fired would not have pieces this big, you would be sweeping it up after you dug it out of the hole where it hit.

The vast majority of missiles today are about as long as from your front bumper to your windshield.

The missile they are claiming it is is a whale of missiles in size. It is about as long as an SUV.

Well, if this missile is anything like the HARM, it will fire its motor upon launch, point its nose up, and accelerate up to Mach 3.6 for a few seconds. Then it will coast on a ballistic trajectory.

The motor doesn't fire all the way to the target, and the speed bleeds off pretty fast at Mach 3.6. Still, I imagine it would be going at least Mach 1.5 when it hits the ground, and I agree, it would probably just dig a hole into the ground at that speed.

So, I don't think this is a Kh-58 unless it went badly wrong, but I still don't see how the body section could have been crushed like that if it still contained an unfired solid rocket motor.

I've never seen a missile with just two triangular fins like that, though. There are almost always four. What's the thing that's sticking out, where the third fin would be? There's something there, but I can't really see what it is. I thought it might be a rib from the third fin, but it could be something else.

Nicholas

The fins are at each 90 degree point and it is the midsection based on the wing type, the rear motor and steering section have triangular wings (4).

The mid section is where the brain for guidance is.

If the 90 degree displaced wing was ripped off the trailing edge would have originated a little way into the crease of the tail end area of the mid section we see here.

There is no paint stripe or remnant metal indication of a severed wing the body barrel paint is unblemished at the 90 degree offset.

Also as I have said before the barrel portion would be of a much smaller diameter if it was the type missile they identified.

I am speaking about the missile they claim it is.

Most have the sensor package and brain up front the boom in the middle and the rocket in the back.

The center wings are for lift to carry the package further than an un winged chunk of metal.

The smaller steerable wings at the tail control 4 way pitch and yaw as determined by the guidance system.

If this were a rocket section that had been fired, the paint would be scorched and discolored and that simply does not exist in the wreckage photo.

Yes I am sure that Russia won't veto any Security Resolution that might condemn them however softly for this incident.