Captain's Quarters -

I don't think Gaza will be a punching bag, mostly because it automatically self-punches. As I said before, Hamas' next step will be to take the West Bank. Their best strategy, from their point of view, is to launch attacks from the West Bank, with the help of Fatah folks they pay to work for them. They launch these attacks from Fatah strongholds--trying to get the Israelis to weaken the already weak Fatah infrastructure. If attacks succeed, that has a unifying effect on the general population and will raise their credibility. But make no mistake, Israel, right now, is a secondary target. Abbas and Fatah are the primaries.

The Israelis will find a way to deal with Hamas on the West Bank more quietly.

Heh. I think Abbas and Fatah will be perfectly happy to deal with Hamas on the West Bank. I'm not sure it will be particularly quiet, tho. How does that old Arab saying go? The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Tho that really should be "friend". But Hamas has put itself between the anvil and the hammer.

The Israelis will find a way to deal with Hamas on the West Bank more quietly.

Heh. I think Abbas and Fatah will be perfectly happy to deal with Hamas on the West Bank. I'm not sure it will be particularly quiet, tho. How does that old Arab saying go? The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Tho that really should be "friend". But Hamas has put itself between the anvil and the hammer.

Hams tries to do a lot of things but thankfully Israel is able to thwart most of them.

“The Israelis appear to have figured all of this out already… The Israelis will find a way to deal with Hamas on the West Bank more quietly.” -Captain

Hamas will supposedly launch suicide attacks against Israel (after all, a “Palestinian source” said so) after 3 years of not launching any such attacks, because they want Israel to attack the West Bank. Israel recognizes what Hamas’ goal is, so instead of attacking the West Bank, they will respond to any Hamas attack by attacking the Gaza strip. Israel states this publicly, it is written about in newspapers and blogs, but Hamas is going to do it anyway, after first denying the whole thing. Right.

“The situation in Gaza, both politically and militarily, continues to deteriorate.” -Captain

“…since June, Hamas has defied expectations by restoring a measure of law and order to the streets of Gaza for the first time in years…”
www.csmonitor.com/2007/0822/p07s02-wome.html?page=2
This article accurately describes Hamas' present situation regarding armed conflict.

“The West Bank, under Fatah leadership, has seen both its status and its economics improve…” -Captain

Maybe the economics have improved, but Fatah's status has certainly not improved. People usually do not respect their leaders when they collaborate with their oppressors. I think this is closer to reality:

“Public support for Fatah, which has come to be seen by many as a stooge of Washington and Tel Aviv, has dropped off markedly in the last two months, since the Palestinian resistance faction Hamas took over Gaza…Further belying the Fatah camp's designation as ‘moderate,’ Abbas, following the lead of Washington and Tel Aviv, has staunchly refused to talk to Hamas since the Gaza takeover. ‘There will be no dialogue with the instigators of the coup,’ Abbas has declared. Hamas, by contrast, has consistently called for negotiations with its Fatah rivals. In a statement late last month, the resistance faction reiterated its call for dialogue, ‘despite the [Palestinian Authority] president's repeated emphasis on his total refusal to hold talks.’ Abbas' steadfast refusal to negotiate has in some circles reinforced the perception of Hamas as the more reasonable party to the conflict.”

IPS, August 21, 2007
"Mideast: Support for Fatah Fades as U.S. Nurtures Abbas"

More Palestinians now say they will vote for Fatah. This is not out of respect. This is out of a desire not to starve to death. It's funny who people will support when the alternative is death and despair. Abbas must be proud.

"More Palestinians now say they will vote for Fatah. This is not out of respect. This is out of a desire not to starve to death. It's funny who people will support when the alternative is death and despair. Abbas must be proud."

Are you sure there is a real alternative there? In order to avoid death and despair don't you have to have, what's the word?, an economy? All they have is open hands for EU, UN, and US aid--which clearly has helped them a lot. The government and culture are de facto murder factories--which, coincidentally produce only one thing. What we have seen is that if they can't murder Israelis, then they will murder themselves.

I'm just underscoring your point. This is, after all, obvious.

In the meantime CNN is allowing the terrorists to use them as a mouthpiece.

most people have lost faith in Hamas after the coup

What coup?

They were elected.

By the way, that makes it worse.

Naftali:
“don't you have to have, what's the word?, an economy?”

And why do you think the Palestinians do not have an economy? Is it because “The government and culture are de facto murder factories”? Are they too busy “manufacturing” murder to worry about working?
From the tone of your post, I assume this is the case. If so, you’re a complete ass. The reason Palestinians do not have an economy is because of closure, which is imposed on them by Israeli occupation. Even far left organizations such as the World Bank recognize this:

siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWESTBANKGAZA/Resources/wbgaza-4yrassessment.pdf

How well do you think the wonderful US economy would function if it was under occupation, was denied trade with the outside world, was denied the importation of raw materials, or to export product, was denied even the movement of goods within the country, and had debilitating curfews on top of it all. I think there might be a small contraction in our economy. In that case, what would you cite as the cause? I expect that in that case the cause would be the occupation. Things look differently when you from the other side.

I have this interesting observation about the friends of the Palestinians who post here. Ever notice that they have been remarkable quiet about the Lebanese Army's destruction of a refugee camp with 50,000 inhabitants where a violent terrorist organization had dug themselves in? Not only was that event ignored here but pretty much in the MSM as well. It seems that the only time that these lovers of the displaced Palestinians show concern is when Jews defend themselves from terrorist attacks. They never say anything when other Arabs cause more death and destruction to their Palestinian heroes then Jews. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that the Defenders don't so much as like Palestinians as they hate the Jews.

Dave: The only reason the Hamas has restored "law and order" to Gaza is that they were the cause of the anarchy and once they seized control the anarchy stopped. No surprise here.

CNN's fatuous terrorist-enabler Amanpour disses Christians and Jews while exalting Muslim "values" including her getting outfitted with a black burka.

I had a dinner guest this weekend who regurgitated some of Amanpour's "facts" almost verbatim, and he was surprised when I had to respectfully point out the source and disagree.

CNN oozes into the pores of viewers with its venomous Islamist agitprop---all disguised under solicitous regard for multiculturalism, of course.

Jerry, keep on making sense. The Israelis evict their own settlers from illegal settlements because they respect the law. The Palestinians, Hamas, Hezbollah, and a lot of other players on the other side wave bloody shirts and explode themselves, but have no respect for the law---international, moral, or otherwise. I think "Dave" may be a ringer, his arguments on behalf of Hamas seem so rehearsed.

It's a choice between the Caliphate and Democracy for the Palestinians----they blew it when they chose Hamas, and remember the old saw...."the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss.......yadda yadda"

Read Jeffrey Goldberg's Prisoners for an interesting exploration in far greater depth than Friedman's From Beirut to Jerusalem.

Jerry:
I also have a problem with the situation in Lebanon. The problem is with those who funded and backed Fatah al-Islam. Who was that? Guess.

daveinboca:
"The Israelis evict their own settlers from illegal settlements because they respect the law."

You're an idiot. The same time Israel was dismantling a few token settlements in Gaza, which were not worth their money anyway (and also was a huge demographic problem), they were busy feverishly expanding West Bank settlements at the same time. Now there are 400,000 settlers in the West Bank. What law did Israel follow in order for that to happen?
Try reading something:

www.btselem.org/Download/200205_Land_Grab_Eng.pdf

gee dave, you're blaming the West for the Palestinian economy? after all the money that has been poured into this society? where has it gone?? arms and graft.
if they would denounce violence and accept the legality of Israel, and work to a 2-state solution, then their problems are solved.
put the blame where it belongs, instead of making excuses for them, whydoncha?

Deb:

Dave and people like him (assuming he is a Dave and not some Abdullah posing as a Dave) are anti-Semites. The silence on both the Lebanese Army's [legitamte] actions agains Palestinian Terrorists and Hamas war crimes in Gaza shows that they don't care about saving Palestinians, they care about killing Jews.

Jerry,
Yes, the shyster is a Jew-hater. But no he is not an Abdullah.

He's a "fish-belly" white, privileged, know-it-all commie punk. He'll take anyone's side who hates the U.S.

He's on record saying that he'd support the violent overthrow of our government so it’s no stretch to say that he’d link up with Satan himself if possible (but only if he could keep his shysterly hands clean).

Unfortunately, he's not just a punk...he's a cowardly punk so he's to chickenshit to actually act out on his "beliefs". That is...other than rant and rave and spew his vile hatred anonymously from the basement.

Dave, Dave, young, young Dave. Since 1947 the Arab plan has been to kill all of the Jews, most of whom were already living in what is now Israel. I watched Nasser's plan unfold to drive the Jews into the Sea. And I have been watching and listening very closely for some Arab leader to say--'you know, we're pretty much over that and we're not going to try to kill you anymore.' That announcement never came. In fact, all I hear are more well-phrased, disguised as liberty and freedom, renditions of the same plan to kill all of the Jews. I don't think it's unreasonable for Jews to not want to be killed. Do you?

Now speaking as what you so cleverly termed 'a complete ass', I assume the Palestinians are pretty bright folks, and if they really wanted to, I assume they could create quite a few good schools and hospitals, and maybe even figure out how to grow more and better crops, and maybe even contribute to the world of science and literature--and really a person can choose just one of those things and make very good progress from the privacy of their own home. You know, and by the way I'm still under ass oath, there are probably a good amount of Arabs LIVING IN ISRAEL who do those very things, contributing to the betterment of mankind.

See, Dave, my notion of Middle East History starts when Mark Twain wrote The Innocents Abroad (which is a book) and he describes Israel as an absolutely desolate region, in--oh why tell such a smart non-complete-ass like you, you know when the book was published. So I'm waiting like, oh, a hundred years for that--I keep forgetting the word--economy, to grow. When did Israel close the crossing, like two years ago, or what is this year?

Now about the US economy. I guess if the economy was based on international welfare, creating terrorist organizations, kidnapping citizens of other countries, and generally killing anything decent that grows in our midst, I would hope our economy would be horrible. Because I would hope the rest of the world wouldn't stand for it. Because THE CAUSE of the problems would be our own proclivity to do great harm and evil to other people. Dave Dave Young Dave, that's an easy question.

Much like Lebanon isn't standing for it, and Jordan didn't stand for it. Tell you the truth Dave, I can't think of a single Arab country that stands for it.

One other minor point Davey boy, how do you figure that even 'far left organizations such as the world bank recognizes this' is a point in your favor--as if multinational NGOs have ever supported the Jews right to live inside of their own country?

I must say though, I envy you. In my world if I drop something it falls to the ground. In your world it floats to the ceiling. I'll bet that's pretty cool.

Swabi:

You may be right but I want to see the proof. Is Dave a commie or is he a Muslim posseur.

Simplest explanation. Dave is what he calls others, which in a sense, are ecumenical terms. And if you were a commie or a Muslim posseur--how eager would you be to claim him as one of yours?

Simplest explanation. Dave is what he calls others, which in a sense, are ecumenical terms. And if you were a commie or a Muslim posseur--how eager would you be to claim him as one of yours?

Deb:
“put the blame where it belongs”

Here’s the E-mail for the World Bank:
pic@worldbank.org

Why don’t you tell them as well. Tell them that Wolfensohn and Wolfowitz are anti-Semetic.

Jerry:
“The silence on both the Lebanese Army's [legitamte] actions agains… Not only was that event ignored here but pretty much in the MSM as well.”

Jerry, I don’ know what you’re talking about. This issue has been covered extensively in the MSM. I am sure you read this controversial New Yorker article:

www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/03/05/070305fa_fact_hersh

I have not been “silent” about Fatah al-Islam. I do not think that the Lebanese army should have stormed the camp as they did, but I am not a supporter of Fatah al-Islam, nor Siniora, Jumblatt, Hariri, or its Usrael backers. Because Israel got its ass kicked by Hezbollah last year, now plan B seems to be trying to start a civil war. It will not work. Nasrallah is too smart.

Naftali:
I guess I hurt your feelings. You decided to write me a post in a condescending voice to get back at me. Funny. You sound like even more of an ass, however. I don’t have time to go through your wonderful post. You mention Twain. In the same book, he also described Greece as desolate and uninhabited:

“From Athens all through the islands of the Grecian Archipelago, we saw little but forbidden sea-walls and barren hills, sometimes surmounted by three or four graceful columns of some ancient temples, lonely and deserted---a fitting symbol of desolation that has come upon all Greece in these latter ages. We saw no plowed fields, very few villages, no trees or grass or vegetation of any kind, scarcely, and hardly ever an isolated house. Greece is a bleak, unsmiling desert, without agriculture, manufactures, or commerce, apparently.”

I wonder why the Jews didn’t take over Greece as well.

Dave,

Thanks so much for the compliment, and I hope that scheduling problem you have clears up. So many people to hate, so little time.

Since you've read Innocents Abroad (or at least googled bits of it), no doubt, you realize that their journey through Greece was much different than their journey through the Holy Land. After all, Twain is (in your quote taken out of context)describing what he saw from the tour ship, which is different than what he saw as his caravan traveled throughout what is now Israel, Lebanon, and Syria. Compared to what they saw on the caravan, Greece was New York. But let me put your mind at ease over the latest problem that perplexes you. The reason that the Jews didn't 'take over Greece' was because...the Jews aren't the Greeks. The reason the Jews RETURNED to Israel is because we used to HAVE A COUNTRY THERE for nearly one thousand years, and have lived there continuously even after the country was conquered. 10 of the 12 tribes disappeared, just assimilated into their surroundings. Who knows, way back in your family's past you might be Jewish too.

Glad I could clear that up for you.

And thanks for you consideration regarding my feelings, which are actually fine. But, it's interesting that such a caring and thoughtful guy like you then said I must be more of an ass. I'm wondering, exactly which part of humanity do supposedly care about? Seems like your heart lies (funny how that phrase seems complete by itself) with the killers in the world. So, if I were you, I'd start worrying about your own feelings. You could end up, you know, a bitter person.

naftali:
“Compared to what they saw on the caravan, Greece was New York.”

New York = “…a bleak, unsmiling desert, without agriculture, manufactures, or commerce…”

Doesn’t sound right to me. The descriptions of Greece and Palestine are similar, ass.

“After all, Twain is… describing what he saw from the tour ship…”

What he saw the night before when he was on land sounded pretty much the same:

“At eleven o'clock at night, when most of the ship's company were abed, four of us stole softly ashore in a small boat… Seeing no road, we took a tall hill to the left of the distant Acropolis for a mark, and steered straight for it over all obstructions, and over a little rougher piece of country than exists any where else outside of the State of Nevada, perhaps… The Attic Plain, barring the grape-vines, was a barren, desolate, unpoetical waste…”

“The reason the Jews RETURNED to Israel is because we used to HAVE A COUNTRY THERE”

I know you are not a hypocrite, so you must also believe that native Americans also should have a country in the US. So which 78% (or more) do you think they should have? How about from somewhere around Ohio to the West coast? Sounds about right. Oh yeh, they should also get the best parts of the 22% that is left, like Florida, the Appalachians, etc. They will be happy. And if the Jews went to Palestine because of ancient history, then why did Herzl also consider Argentina? (Which raises an interesting question. If they had chosen Argentina, Argentinians would certainly have resisted, because that is what people do when their homes are taken. In that case, Argentinians would be the terrorists today, and Palestinians would be in the news today about as much as Argeninians are. Weird.)

“...exactly which part of humanity do supposedly care about?"

I care about oppressed people. During WWII, I would have cared about Jews. A few years later, when Jews were ethnically cleansing Palestine (that transition amazes me), I would have cared about Palestinians. Who I care about changes depending on the situation. This worldview takes a little more thought than how most people do it. Most people look on a map and find out where they live, and then they care about the people on the same side as themselves of some imaginary line. This an easier methods of adopting a worldview, and it is useful for simpletons.

“Who knows, way back in your family's past you might be Jewish too.”

My mother in law is Jewish. She doesn’t much care for the Zionist leadership killing and oppressing Palestinians either. She values people more than land. She has a soul. We get along well.

“Seems like your heart lies…with the killers in the world”

Would you like to compare who has killed more people, Israel or Palestine?

“You could end up, you know, a bitter person.”

Just because I call you an ass does not mean I am bitter. It’s quite the opposite. The reason I have been posting here so long is for the entertainment. Most of the people here are very funny. Not you. You just pretty pathetic. You look for scraps in a 150 year old book to try and justify your oppression of an entire people. It’s pretty sad.

Twain talked a lot about a place called “Palestine”. When I look at a map now, I do not see such a place. So who wiped who off the map?

Isreal:

The Owen Wilson of the Middle East.

Dave,

You ever think you might have a fetish with certain parts of human anatomy? I'm just noticing a pattern in the way you express yourself. You might want to look into that.

Um, you might have noticed there aren't a lot of apartments among the Greek ruins. Were you expecting apartments to be there? I don't think Twain was. That's why they felt pretty comfortable sneaking out and taking some of the stones home. However, he was shocked that what is now Israel had virtually no population. Can we agree on that? Or do you still think up is down, right is wrong, and words mean what you say they mean?

I think you've got your history confused. The Palestinian Arabs were offered their own nation four times. Four times they refused and kept on with their business of killing Jews. The analogy to the native Americans doesn't hold. There were many tribes, and many tribes at war. It wasn't one large peaceful nation. But I'm missing the part of your logic where the history of native Americans matters but the history of the Jewish people doesn't matter. You might want to work out that hypocrisy glitch in your thinking.

Oh this is clever. You asked why the Jews didn't take over Greece, I answered because the Jews don't have a history as a nation in Greece, whereas we do in Israel. And then you take what I said out of the context that you created in the first place. That's clever. I suspect Herzl considered anyplace where there wouldn't be persecution--you do acknowledge that history don't you? The idea is not to acquire land but to avoid persecution. This isn't getting too complicated is it?

Okay, so during WWII you would have cared about the Jews--even though you now support folks who have Mein Kampf as a bestseller. And this is logical to you? So in 1946, right after WWII, and there are hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees, you still care about the Jews? In 1947, when some arrive in the Jewish neighborhoods of Palestine, do you still care about them? In 1948, when Israel is declared a state populated by these same refugees and every Arab nation immediately declares war--now you support the Arabs? Because now those very same Jews are doing the ethnic cleansing, like we want to take over Syria, and Jordan, and Egypt, and Iraq? And this makes sense to you?

So in 1948 you have Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, all fighting to get rid of the Jews from what they consider their land, and it's the Jews who are doing the ethnic cleansing?

If your mother-in-law (dude, your wife is Jewish)can't go into Saudi Arabia, or Gaza, or the West Bank because she is Jewish, you say it's the Israelis who are doing the ethnic cleansing? If Israel leaves Gaza so the Gazans can govern themselves and they spend their time shooting thousands of rockets into Israel to kill, well, just about anyone, it's the Israelis who are doing the ethnic cleansing? Dude, what would it look like if it were the Arabs doing the ethnic cleansing? Describe that scenario. What would it look like if they were trying to do the ethnic cleansing but failing because the Jewish people have pretty much had it with genocides and pogroms? Describe that. Could you explain why the Arab countries expelled 900,000 Jews in 1947-48? Doesn't that sound just a little like ethnic cleansing?

To me, if a people were all about the land, then all they would talk about was the land--which is what the Arabs do. But if a group were all about the people, then they would talk about peace, which is what the Israelis do. I promise you, if I lived in Sderot I'd consider myself an oppressed person. Do you consider those in Sderot oppressed? If you care about oppressed people? Is it possible in your worldview, as distorted as it is, that Jews anywhere can be oppressed? Could you describe what that would look like? A scenario in which Jews are oppressed? To me that would look like about five or six countries armed to the teeth and about to go nuclear wanting to kill every Jew in Israel. But that's me. What would it look like to you, hypothetically of course?

Here's another one of your gems. Who has killed more people Israel or the Palestinians? Here's the question--who has spent more time and resources trying to exterminate the other side? Answer: Arafat, Fatah, Hamas, and the seemingly sixty or so homicidal franchises that pop up from week to week. Which leads us back to doe. They don't use their own resources helping their own people, Mr. I Care About People. How much bread and trees can you plant for the cost of one kashalnikov? How many schools can be built from the billions of UN money? And how come no schools were built? If you care about the Palestinians were you a supporter of Arafat? Because that is one man who did NOT care about the Palestinians.

And yes, you are bitter, and it's not because you call me an ass. I've been reading the comments about you today--dude, people don't like you. Where do you get the idea that this is entertainment? That you're having convivial conversations with everyone here. You're calling them your pet bitter names, they're calling you a commie or a Hamas sympathizer, a supporter of murderers--where is the fun? I'm sorry, but your Fruit Loops are a little loopier than most.

Finally, you looked at a map, bravo. Twain called it Palestine, because it was called that. It has been RENAMED. That's not wiping land off the map. New York used to be New Amsterdam. Was that wiped off the map? I don't think so. But you might--so, why? Why would you think a name change is the same as an earthquake or what happened to Pompeii?

Why did I bring up Twain? It was only a few posts ago, you can go back and read. But I asked you when Middle Eastern History begins for you. You still didn't name a date. I started with Twain because he observed no one was there. It's as good a place to start as any. A blank slate. You could have said 70 AD. You could have said 1920. Or 1948. You could have said 1776 for all I care. But you don't mention a date because the response is for you to tell the truthful history from the date you mention. And quite frankly, I don't think you're capable of doing that.

Dave:

You are such a self-parody. It must be the Jews who are fault in Lebanon. I guess you have been consulting your copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

The MSM might have given 30 seconds one night on the Lebanese Army operations. It was nothing like the Jenin "massacre" which as we all know was a product of MSM wishful thinking.

Dave:

You are such a self-parody. It must be the Jews who are fault in Lebanon. I guess you have been consulting your copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

The MSM might have given 30 seconds one night on the Lebanese Army operations. It was nothing like the Jenin "massacre" which as we all know was a product of MSM wishful thinking.

naftali:
I give up. You win. I love Israel.

Jerry:
Call up the New Yorker and tell them they are the equivalent of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I am sure they would like to know.

“The MSM might have given 30 seconds one night on the Lebanese Army operations.”

The issue was widely reported:

NYT: “Lebanon: Militants' Families Leave Camp”
WaPO: “Women, Children Leave Battle Zone;
Only Fighters Remain in Lebanese Camp Women, Children Leave Battle Zone; Only Fighters Remain in Lebanese Camp”
NYT:” Lebanon: Militants' Families Can Leave Camp; Truce Reported”

LATimes” Clashes with militants kill 6 Lebanese troops”
NYT:” Lebanon: Six Soldiers Killed”
WaPO:” Lebanon Shells Refugee Camp;
Four Soldiers, One Civilian Killed in Renewed Fighting”
Christian Science Monitor:” Militants stir in Lebanese outposts”
NYT:” Chaotic Lebanon Risks Becoming Militant Haven”
NYT:” Lebanese Troops Kill 2 Palestinian Protesters and Wound 30”
LATimes:” Lebanese soldiers kill 6 in clashes with militants;
Those slain in a raid are said to be members of an Islamist group.”
LATimes:” Lebanon bombing kills 6 U.N. troops;
The dead are Spaniards and Colombians. In the north, the army battles militants; 10 are slain, including two civilians.”
WaPO:” Six U.N. Peacekeepers Die in Lebanon Bombing”
Boston Globe:” Franchising Al Qaeda”
LATimes:” Lebanon's Sunnis teetering on the fault line of conflict;
The army's clashes with militants in the north and a crackdown on Islamists have left the community divided.”
NYT:” Army Provides a Sense of Unity in Fractured Lebanon”
WaPO:” Radical Group Pulls In Sunnis As Lebanon's Muslims Polarize”
LATimes:” 2 Lebanese aid workers killed at refugee camp”
NYT:” Sporadic Fighting Continues in Lebanon Refugee Camp”
LATimse:” LEBANON;
5 soldiers killed in fighting at camp”
WaPO:” Lebanese Military Has No Deadline;
Time Not an Issue In Siege of Camp, Commander Says”
NYT:” 4 Die in Fighting at Camp in Southern Lebanon”
WaPO:” As Crises Build, Lebanese Fearful of a Failed State”
Christian Science Monitor:” In fight against militants, Lebanon bolstered by US, Gulf countries”
LATimes:” Islamic militants attack army in Lebanon's south ;
Military officials fear that the clash outside a refugee camp is an expansion of the fighting in the north.”
NYT:” Fighting in Lebanese Refugee Camp Rages, and Spreads”
WaPO:” Radicals Hit Lebanese Army From Second Refugee Camp”
NYT:” Fighting Worsens as Lebanese Army Surrounds Militants”
WaPO:” Lebanese Army Pounds Fighters at Refugee Camp”
LATimes:” Lebanese troops attack militants' bases;
Army renews barrage against Fatah al Islam fighters at a Palestinian refugee camp; at least 14 people are killed.”
NYT:” 18 Dead in Lebanon as Army And Camp Militants Clash”
WaPO:” Lebanese Military Advances on Extremist Group at Refugee Camp”
Christian Science:” In Lebanon's camps, rising sympathy for Islamists”
NYT:” Jihadist Groups Fill a Palestinian Power Vacuum”
LATimes:” Camp battle resumes in Lebanon”
LATimes:” Lebanon's Palestinians live in limbo;
Refugees' flight from crossfire at a camp has only underscored their unwelcome presence.”
NYT:” Militant Hints At Resolution In Lebanon”
Economist:” The cauldron may bubble over again;
Lebanon”
WaPO:” U.S. Military Aid Begins to Reach Lebanon”
Christian Science:” Is Lebanon facing a 'new breed' of Al Qaeda?”
LATimes:” Refugees aim anger at Lebanese army;
Some leaving a camp for Palestinians express sympathy for the group ideologically linked with Al Qaeda targeted by the shelling”
NYT:” Refugees Pour Out of Camp in Lebanon”
WaPO:” Lebanese Military Threatens To Renew Assault on Camp;
Cease-Fire Holds as Extremist Group Refuses to Surrender”
WaPO:” Convene the Court;
If the U.N. wants to check Middle East violence, it can start with Lebanon.”
LATimes:” Palestinians rush from their Lebanon camp”
NYT:” Furious Street Battles Remind Lebanon of Its Bloody Past”
WaPO:” Shelling Ceases in Lebanon;
Palestinian Camp Residents Flee After 3 Days of Heavy Fighting”
Christian Science:” New fight rips at a fragile Lebanon”
LATimes:” Strife deepens in north Lebanon; Army shells a refugee camp used by militants. `The human situation is a catastrophe,' says a doctor in the area.”
NYT:” Lebanese Army and Islamists Battle Near Camp for 2nd Day”
WaPO:” Lebanon Confronts A Fierce Adversary; Shelling Targets Well-Armed Force In Refugee Camp”
WaPO:” Splinter Groups Rise In Refugee Camps; Decline of Palestinian Institutions Cited”
LATimes:” 34 killed as violence flares in Lebanon; Army battles Islamic militants at a Palestinian refugee camp and in a nearby city. Some fear Syria is stoking unrest.”
NYT:” LEBANESE TROOPS FIGHT ISLAMISTS; DOZENS ARE SLAIN”
WaPO:” Lebanese Army Battles Guerrillas; Many Killed”
NYT:” Lebanese Army Tightens Security At Camp to Press Militant Group”
NYT:” In Lebanon Camp, a New Face Of Jihad Vows Attacks on U.S.”

Dave:

Give me the page numbers and column inches.

Also show me the MSM articles saying that the terrorist group in question is funded by the Israelis.

Dave,

You are gracious in defeat.

Seriously, though, if your mother-in-law is Jewish, then your wife is Jewish, then your kids are Jewish. And there are people over there, ideologies, and believers in those ideologies that would kill your family in an instant--and be proud of it. And there is a culture over there that would celebrate that act. It's just something to think about. We'll leave it at that.

Jerry:
"Give me the page numbers and column inches."
No.

"Also show me the MSM articles saying that the terrorist group in question is funded by the Israelis."

I never said it was the Israelis. You assumed. It is the US. The story came from Hersh in the New Yorker, and I already quoted it. I guess you did not read it. Franklin Lamb also reported on the same story. He'll be much easier for you to discount than Hersh. Did Hersh write the Protocol for the Elders of Zion?

naftali:
My mother in law is a foster mother.

"And there is a culture over there that would celebrate that act."

What about this culture that celebrates the Goldstein massacre?:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/685792.stm

Five Israelis watched and filmed the twin towers burn, celebrating, dancing, and high-fiving the whole time. What about that culture?

naftali:
"there are people over there, ideologies, and believers in those ideologies that would kill your family in an instant":

Hamas says over and over and over that their resistance is not targeting Judaism as a religion, but Zionism, which seeks to take over their land and oppress their people. They have never attacked any Jews outside of Israel. They say that if it were a Muslim nation taking over their land and killing their people, they would resist exactly as they do now. When native Americans resisted the takeover of their country, was it because they were "anti-European"? Or "anti-white"?
It is not the Jewish religion that Hamas resists, but the actions taken by the Zionists.

Dave:

Hersch is a nut case. Even his Mi Lai credentials are suspect. He has predicted an immenent US attack on Iran for the alst 3 years. I guess he will say he was right if we get around to doing it someday.

I think the reason that you won't provide the information I asked for is that you know all the print reporting was buried inside the paper and that the total number of column inches is probably less then one Jenin story.

Jerry:
"I think the reason that you won't provide the information I asked for is that you know all the print reporting was buried inside the paper and that the total number of column inches is probably less then one Jenin story."

That is not the reason. The reason is that I already spent some time copying and pasting the headlines, and I will not repeat the process. I did, however, notice several stories over 800 words and in the front pages. The reason I will not repeat the process is because of the complete futility in doing so. Your defense mechanisms are endless. If the stories are large enough and in the front 3 pages, you will then move on to your next defense mechanism, maybe something like "the authors are nut cases". No amount of information can ever break through the wall people like you have erected in your minds that blocks out information that you don't want to hear.
If Bush and Cheney and the rest of the cabinet have a news conference this afternoon and announce that everything they said about going into Iraq was a lie, and the real reason they did so was to protect Israel, you still wouldn't believe it. You would say that some terrorist must have brainwashed them. It's like trying to talk to someone in a cult.

Ah, there you go it's all about the Zionist Occupation Government now, isn't it?

Every see the movie Betrayed? Just drive around the political circle and you would fit right in with the characters

Ah, there you go it's all about the Zionist Occupation Government now, isn't it?

Every see the movie Betrayed? Just drive around the political circle and you would fit right in with the characters

Dave,

We're going to have to end this soon--but Dave, they would kill your foster mother, and be happy about it. And is it such a stretch to understand there are families with a non-Jewish father, a Jewish mother and Jewish children who also would be killed without a moment's thought, and the deaths would be glorified? Think as a parent. I know you can do this.

Regarding Hamas making a distinction between the Jewish religion and Zionists--this, I'm afraid, is a bit of human psychology you're going to have to learn on your own. And why in the world would you trust Hamas over--ahh, that's the problem. You don't know who to trust in the world. Like I said, life teaches that one. I hope it's not too hard a lesson for you, it's rarely an easy one.

And here is a difference between how most Jews view Goldstein and how most West Bankers view their 'martyrs'. Ready? Goldstein is a sick person who did things that were evil. We're not putting up posters of him as a hero. Yes, there are those who do--but I'm saying we're Jews not saints. You're not expecting us all to be saints, are you? You're not expecting us to be Charlton Heston playing Moses, are you? Because it seems as though you do expect us to roll over and let people kill us.

And you do know that Jews are attacked virtually every day in Europe--because they are Jews. I believe these would be victims--are you ready to protest about their attackers? Plenty of work to do on that front. Wouldn't want to guess who their attackers usually are, would you?

You'll forgive me for not fully trusting the media when it comes to issues about Jews and Israel. Let's just not go there.

Back to the native Americans--who were for the most part normal people. Hell yes they were anti-European and anti-white. Those are normal feelings. They would have to be saints not to feel that way. And when they fought they could be pretty darn brutal.

To tell you the truth Dave, I don't love all of mankind anymore. (See paragraph 2). And don't criticize this until you've had that life lesson.

So, we've got to end it here. Anymore and it's going to sound like therapy, your trust issues, the whole saint/whore dialectic. But I would recommend you go sit in the bleachers for a while and watch things in a detached fashion, just sit back and take in some rays, take in some data. And be patient.

naftali,

Congratulations. I've been reading the shyster's blather for over two years. There are not many who have been able to shut his foul pie hole. You just joined that august body. Hope you keep posting comments on the Captain's blog.

OBTW the shyster's mother-in-law is not Jewish. He's lying about that too...thinks that white one will make the casual reader think he doesn't "really" hate the Jews.

Swabjockey,

Well, thanks, I think. I pop in occasionally just to put in my two cents, ended up putting in quite a bit more this time.

I ended up kind of liking him--and you never know what's back in anyone's ancestry. I've always wondered what became of the lost tribes. It's not like they could hop on the Concorde and end up in Singapore.

And one thing I believe I have observed, never underestimate life's ability to create irony. I mean mind-bending psychedelic irony.

naftali:
You didn't explain to me why the Israelis were dancing while watching the towers burn. Is that part of Israeli culture? If you can generalize the actions of a few to an entire culture, can't I do so as well?

"And why in the world would you trust Hamas over--"

Because I see Israel lie often. I have not seen Hamas lie. Hezbollah either. If they do, can you show me where? Even Israeli ministers acknowledge that Nasrallah does not lie:

jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1186557456474&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

"Back to the native Americans--who were for the most part normal people. Hell yes they were anti-European and anti-white."

Native Americans did not attack them because they were white or European. They attacked them because they were taking their land. That is what people do. Sometimes, when the other side is much stronger, groups use "terrorism". Kind of like when the Irgun and Stern gang (and the Zealots as well) used terrorism when they believed that their land was occupied. Was their terrorism acceptable?

naftali:
“[Palestinians] don't use their own resources helping their own people…”

Trying to stop Israel from taking more land is helping the Palestinians. Also, any comment about Israelis not using their own resources to help Holocaust survivors?:

iht.com/articles/2007/04/16/news/web-holocaust16.php

So where did all those billions go that Israel extorted from European governments? It sure didn’t go to the 260,000 Holocaust survivors living in poverty. Wonderful culture you have there.

naftali:
“Israel had virtually no population.”

It is amazing that there are people that still believe this. To deny the Holocaust is the greatest crime that a human being can commit in this world, but for Israelis to deny the very existence of an entire people is just fine. Of course, this same argument was used when they said that there were no inhabitants on North America as well. It’s standard.

Dave,

Have you thought about taking up bowling? Maybe a musical instrument? Learn a foreign language?

Trust is a very complex thing in this world. So you are perfectly normal to be so confused. It really can be hard to trust another person if you don't trust yourself. If you've got to argue all the time to give yourself validation I think that's counterproductive. Some people use hate as a shortcut to learning to trust--it's quite easy to simply dismiss a group or a country because of who they are.

It's also difficult to develop trust when you yourself are not completely honest with others. Have you been telling me the whole truth about your family? You have to start being honest with others, or else you're just projecting your own lies onto those other people. Not good for building relationships. Do you have trouble building relationships? At least be honest with yourself, you don't have to tell the entire nation (internet and all).

But let's say that you don't trust, or more precisely can't trust at the moment. That inability creates tension inside of you, and you respond with anger. You don't have to go there. You can respond with caution, for instance. You can ask questions rather than lashing out at others.

The key here is not to place your trust in one person or person, unless of course they're your parents, but learn to develop a process for discerning truth, what's right and wrong. Why, for instance would you trust Hamas but not Mark Twain? Seriously, examine that. There might be a flaw in your process, which would further compound you inability to trust, leading to more shortcuts of hate. If that initial trusting process was damaged by your parents or siblings, then maybe group therapy would help.

It would be sad to think that there is no one in your life you can talk to besides Jews online.

The other issue you have is this saint/whore dialectic--that if someone or some country you wish would be saintly, that if this person or country has their own problems or feet of clay, you again respond with anger and they become objects of your hate and rage. Perhaps someone close to you disappointed you greatly at some crucial point in your life?

Like I said, take a step back. Relax. I've already responded to everything you just brought up in previous posts. I'm not going to go in circles with you. You really need to do some self-examination. There's medication that can help that process along.

It's a tough process, but I have confidence that you can do it.

Dave:

This guy I know showed me a story on counterpunch that talked about Israelis dancing as the towers burned. Since counterpunch is what I call part of the new neo-Nazi movemnet I decided to Google the story. All I found was a set of self referential sites ranging from the Kosite left to traditional neo-Nazi groups. I found no reference to so-called Israeli celebration coming from a reliable news source. What I did find though was that it looks lke the neo neo-Nazis just took real stories of Muslims doing that sort of thing and substituted Israeli in their place. Dancing Israelis are nothing more then a new internet based version of old fashion blood libel.

Once again you show yourself to be an anti-Semite and part of the neo neo-Nazi movement.

naftali:
Amazingly, your are able to say less and less with each post. And they don't get shorter. Weird.

Jerry:
“This guy I know showed me a story on Counterpunch…All I found was a set of self referential sites ranging from the Kosite left to traditional neo-Nazi groups”

Here's what I found:

“The New York Times reported Thursday that a group of five men had set up video cameras aimed at the Twin Towers prior to the attack on Tuesday, and were seen congratulating one another afterwards.”

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34250,00.html

So who were these men?

“Five Israelis who had worked for a moving company based in New Jersey are being held in U.S. prisons for what the Federal Bureau of Investigation has described as 'puzzling behavior' following the terror attack on the World Trade Center in New York last Tuesday...The Foreign Ministry said in response that it had been informed by the consulate in New York that the FBI had arrested the five for ‘puzzling behavior.’ They are said to have had been caught videotaping the disaster and shouting in what was interpreted as cries of joy and mockery.”

Haaretz, Sept 17, 2001 “Five Israelis detained for ‘puzzling behavior’ after WTC tragedy” By Yossi Melman

“Also, five of the Israelis came to the FBI's attention after they were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. The FBI seized and developed their photos, one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smoldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture.”

The Globe and Mail, Dec 17, 2001, “U.S. arrests of Israelis a mystery” By Doug Saunders

“‘They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange,’ she said.”

The Israelis said: "We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem."

www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0622-05.htm

(Don’t freak out at the link. It is a copy from ABC News)

"Three individuals were seen celebrating in Liberty State Park after the impact. They said three people were jumping up and down…’It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park.’"

The New Jersey News (Bergen), “Five men detained as suspected conspirators” By Paulo Lima

I guess the New York Times, Fox News, the Globe and Mail, Haaretz, ABC News, and the New Jersey News are all part of the Neo-Nazi movement. Sounds like you're a conspiracy theorist to me.

jerry:
I did some more searching. I never found this before. ABC News even ran a story on 20/20 about the possible Israeli "spies". The Forward (anti-Semetic) even ran a story that the FBI determined that two of the men were from Mossad. We know already that ABC News is part of the Neo-Nazi movement. Maybe The Forward is as well. That's weird. Here's the Lexis Nexis transcript of the video:

Video Monitoring Services of America
June 21, 2002, Friday 10:00
PM ET

20/20

NETWORK: ABC Network Programming

LENGTH: 517 words

START: 03.31

Teased Segment - Israeli Spies? It has been learned that Israel may have known a little bit more about the terrorist attack, in this country. Apparently, three Israeli men became an investigation with the CIA and FBI. They were being asked if they had any advanced knowledge of the attacks. The arrest of these men came from a New Jersey woman.
Visual - Footage of Maria.
Interview - Maria, says that her friend told her that she was sitting, when she heard a noise & felt like the building shook at the same time. Maria says that this was on the same day as the terror attacks.
Visual - Footage of the World Trade Center building. Maria also says that when she looked down into the parking lot, she saw a van parked. Maria also says that she saw about 3 guys on top of the van.
Visual - Tomatoes. When the CIA and FBI traced the license plates of the van, it was from the company called Urban Moving Systems, Inc.
Visual - Urban Moving Systems, Inc vans.
Interview - Deputy Chief Robert Del Priore, Weehawken Police Dept, says that they were alerted to look out for a Urban Moving van, with a license number that was given out.
Visual - Exterior of Giant Stadium. In the van, there was about 5 Israeli men. One of the men had $4,700 in cash, hidden in his sock, one had two foreign passports.
Graphic - Police Report from Officer Scott DeCarlos.
Graphic - Suspects.
Visual - Exterior of the J. Edgar Hoover FBI Building.
Interview - Colleen Stepcovich, says that the FBI were at Urban Moving for hours.
Visual - Interior of Urban Moving.
Visual - Nortel, AT&T NEC products.
Interview - Frank Crisp, Customer of Urban Moving, says that they were very short on the phone. The owner of Urban Moving sold his house, dropped the company, and moved back to Israel with his family.
Interview - Steve Gordon, Atty for the 5 Israelis, says that there was guys taking pictures off of a roof in New York City, speaking in a foreign language, etc.
Graphic - Newspaper Articles: "Forward". "The Forward" reported that the FBI concluded that two of them were Mossad operatives, which were part of Israeli Intelligence.
Interview - Vince Canestrelo, Fmr. Chief of Operations on Counterterrorism, says that when federal investigators checked the names of people being arrested on national intelligence, some of the names came up as hits. Vince is believing that some of the men arrested, where in the U.S. working for intelligence.
Visual - Israeli protests.
Visual - Exterior of the Department of Justice.
Visual - Coca-Cola logo.
Interview - Paul Kersburg, Israeli, says that he went to work in the United States.
Interview - Sevan Kersburg, Israeli, says that we took away 2 months of his life.
Studio Interview - Odette Elner, Israeli, says that they were coming from a country that experiences terror daily, and on purpose they documented the event.
Interview - Raum Horvitz, Israeli Atty, says that the study of the 5 boys being connected with the Israeli Intelligence, is the most ridiculous story that he has ever heard."

Jerry:
I did some more searching. Put WaPo and CNBC down as part of the conspiracy. I’ll start leaving the article and page numbers attached since you seem to want that info:

“America Mourns/Michelle Caruso Cabrera. FBI agents have returned to a moving company across the river from New York's financial district. They removed 13 computer harddrives.
Visual - Urban Moving Systems RENT Trucks. Five men are being held after being caught on Tuesday in a van belonging to this company. Some are employees if Urban Moving Systems. The men were celebrating after the attack on the World Trade Center.”

Video Monitoring Services of America
September 14, 2001, Friday PM ET
Market Watch
NETWORK: CNBC Cable Programming

“Elsewhere, it was the incongruities that caught the attention of investigators. In Weehauken, N.J., authorities said teams of FBI agents searched a warehouse owned by Urban Moving Systems after neighbors spotted several employees jumping up and down in celebration soon after the World Trade Center attacks.”

The Washington Post
September 16, 2001 Sunday
Final Edition
“2nd Witness Arrested; 25 Held for Questioning”
BYLINE: Guy Gugliotta and David S. Fallis, Washington Post Staff Writers
SECTION: A SECTION; Pg. A29
LENGTH: 1510 words

By the way, Jerry,, this is all the tip of the iceberg. If you really want to look into this, it seems pretty clear that these guys had a plan to blow up the George Washington bridge. I guess you really hate the MSM now. Neo-Nazis.

Dave's linked Fox News article has no mention of "israel" or "israeli", but does list several arabic names, including Amanullah Atta Mohammed. The five men setting up the video, mentioned at the very end of the article, were not identified.

The alleged Haaretz article only appears in two places on the web, one of them David Irving's site. Irving is a nortorious holocaust denier, hardly a reputable source. The other site, also blatantly judenhaas, claims that only one israeli national was killed in the WTC attack. Both appear rather suspicious, to put it mildly.

Alas, Haaretz does not appear to have a comprehensive archive online. All in all, I would not be surprised to find that the article is simply a forgery.

By the way, the google search I used is: http://tinyurl.com/yo3mcg

plumber:
Fox News: Yes, the story does not mention Israelis, but I listed it as a corroboration of the event. So what about the other half dozen that talks about them as Israelis? Would you like to see of video of the men on Israeli TV? Would that convince you they are Israeli? You're an idiot.

"Haaretz article only appears in two places on the web"
Get Lexis Nexis and look it up. Not everything is on the web, idiot. The stories I listed are all from the MSM. They have nothing to do with David Irving, asshole. I can find a dozen more if you like.

IS THEERE IS SINGLE PERSON ON THIS SITE WITH AN IQ ABOVE 50??