Captain's Quarters -

Our most important ally in the terrorists' war on us remains the Muslim mainstream. We should never forget this.

Ed, how do you know AQI killed Abu Risha?

They've published online that he was killed by the Islamic state for meeting with Bush.

Situation in Iraq has many parallels with the Spanish Civil War of 1936. They also had a number of hothead fanatics coming from the entire Galaxy to defend "Freedom" against "Devil". It quickly led to massive abuses and disillusioned many participants (Orwell being one of the most prominent ones). What started under a great ideological banner was eventually not much more, than various egos fighting for power and sex.

I have often thought that if the Iraqi people could find a outside enemy that threatens them as a people, as Shites and Sunnis, that it would unit them as a common people. Certainly we see this is the reaction against AQI. As a therapist, I see many families tearing thenselves apart from within. But the moment an outside threat is detected, the family bonds together often with healing affect. Not sure of my history, but perhaps the terrible assisination of Lincohn helped bring our own country out of the civil war. Probably a stretch there. You get my point.

I heard this one, yesterday. And, the first thing I thought of, as the news made its rounds in Iraq, is that there are plenty of Shi'a; in the tens of thousands, who have been injured by a sunni bomb; killed by one of these road side or car bombs. And, definitely lost property and business.

I'm sure they shrugged; and, said that this dead sheiks family, in particular, will "know what it's like." And, that ain't pretty.

Can the sunnis run back?

You're kidding me.

Because all this actually shows is the desperation of the terrorists; killing someone they knew well! Knew his habits. New his hatreds. New his dreams. And, they were mad as hell!

Will this "freak out the remaining sheiks?

Actually, I think it's similar to what you see when the family piles in to hear the "will read."

There's a lot of stuff that gets divvy-ed up. And, the other shieks? Well, if they "suspect" the bomber? Good luck to the bomber. Because he's about to discover Mafia responses to the "kill" of the Godfather. Not that I care. Didn't even like the book or the movies.

Now, what did the sunnis buy? Because they've come on board. And, their sons are getting American training IF they pass the test. Comes with pocket money. And, pride.

You can actually walk their streets now. After, yes, Ramadi got nearly flattened, before it caved.

SO the taste of "cave" is known, here.

While I thought the President, last night, would map out more damage ahead for syria and iran. But, then, I thought again. Because he didn't do it. And, I realized Petraeus is HERE. Not there.

SO, you can add to all the sacrifices the Iraqis have already made; to a maturity among arabs that life is short. AND. IT. PAYS. TO. STICK. WITH. A. WINNER. (That's us. While the Bonkeys yell and really scare the pants off muzzies.)

Ya know, when asked by Biden, Petraeus admitted when he called Irak "home" ... that he is heading home. And, I do expect he will show the sunnis ways they can get retribution. (That's a big word in arab language.) Mario Puzo would know.

And that's just the 1,500 that showed up. There'll be plenty of recruiting going on. And a whole new bunch of families that will be willing to rat out AQ.
The real link in this is children. Michael Yon tells us time and time again that parents and grandparents fight over who's going to put the kids/grandkids in front of any American with a camera. The Iraqis love to show off their kids. And are finally coming around to the point of view that AQ will kill anyone, anytime that stands or appears to stand in their way, including or especially children.
Go to www.michaelyon-online.com and read his dispatches and see the photos and his comments about kids and cameras.

AJ Strata sees everything as a turning point. AJ Strata is insane.

I have a tough time deciding just where he is wrong the most -- political predictions, of which his are a farcically optimistic disaster -- or military predictions where, once in a blue moon, the U.S. military does something to make him appear -- right before he goes to dreaming.

Ed, how can you quote "AJ Strata's Political and Military Fantasy Blog"?

"Ed, how do you know AQI killed Abu Risha?"

Actually it makes no difference who actually killed him, as long as the people on the street think that aQI did it. Maybe the message on the internet was from the CIA, or one of our Military's intellegence groups, or even from C. Rove.

Propaganda is a weapon, sometimes more powerful than any other collection of weapons.

We...better..start...understanding...and using...that fact.
aQ understands it well and uses it much better than we do.

That has got to change.

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

They've published online that he was killed by the Islamic state for meeting with Bush.

In other words, you don't know that AQI did it either. FYI, no one has claimed credit for the assassination yet.

We've had so much misleading propaganda about Iraq already that it's long since lost any effectiveness it might have once had.

What I hate about this whole thing, is that Iraq is basically a lose-lose scenario for the US. There really aren't any good outcomes to the war, as even the most positive possible outcomes will cost us dearly for many years.

It's important to remember that the Sheik in question was a murderer, thief, bandit, and general ne-er-do-well. I don't cheer for his death, but I don't cry for it either; he wasn't exactly an upstanding fellow.

What is the Muslim mainstream?

Is it the same ideology that is having Minnesota cabbies not take rides due to people carrying liquor or because they are blind and have a seeing eye dog?

Is it the same folks who attended a conference in Dallas, Texas (Irving actually I think) whose stated topic was praising the teachings of the Ayatollah Kohmeini (sp?)?

Is the same folks in the Dallas Texas area that proclaim the reason Sharia is not forced upon America is because there are not enough Muslims in America?

I don't know, but appearances suggest the Muslim mainstream has a lot in common with the Muslim radicals.

Cycloptichorn | September 14, 2007 11:25 AM
What I hate about this whole thing, … cost us dearly for many years.
Fair enough, you are entitled to you opinion.

Let me ask you another fair question:
What is the most positive possible outcome if we re-treat from the battlefield in WoT? And at what cost (for many years to come)?
Really doesn’t matter if you or anybody really “HATE this whole thing”, does it? The enemy had brought it on, let’s see if and how you are going to finish it.

sorry to be obtuse with pronouns. AP wire service report that Al Qaeda sources ["they"] claimed the soldiers of the Islamic state killed him for meeting with Bush. "Could Bush protect you?"

"What I hate about this whole thing, is that Iraq is basically a lose-lose scenario for the US. There really aren't any good outcomes to the war, as even the most positive possible outcomes will cost us dearly for many years"

Same thing with NATO and the Marshall Plan. Put millions of American factory workers out of a job, crippled our unions, etc.

"It's important to remember that the Sheik in question was a murderer, thief, bandit, and general ne-er-do-well."

When he was shooting at us, Kerry et al. asked why he wasn't being brought over to our side. Now that he's with us he's too slovenly to tolerate?

wouldn't be the first time that someone in that bunch cut off his nose so that he might more efficiently stomp on his d#$k.

and that bunch has some really big noses.

C

starfleet_dude...thanks for providing an alibi for alQueda. Apparently they have realized this was a faux pas and preparing to deny the credit/blame for it. Pls contact your local AQ recruiting office. Remember it's BYO-AK47 these days! :)

Cycloptichorn...the Sheik you are slamming turned his and others views around and became an ally. He died doing so. Please wait a day or so until you do a MoveOn.Org on him...ok?

Yell, here's what I've found out so far about the assassination of Sheik Sattar, from the NY Times:

On Thursday, the American military said a bomb destroyed the vehicle he was in, but it was unclear whether it was a roadside bomb or a suicide bomber.

No group had claimed the assassination by late Thursday, but security officials in Iraq appeared convinced that responsibility lay with Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, the home-grown extremist group that American intelligence agencies say is foreign-led. The extent of its links to Osama bin Laden’s network is unclear.

But many groups in Iraq carry out assassinations, and Sheik Sattar may have had other enemies. Some other tribal leaders felt he drew more of the spotlight than was his due. More recently, there were tensions between him and Sunni Arabs in Parliament, who worried that his alliance’s growing influence might encroach on their power.

If I had to guess, I would say it was AQ in Mesopotamia who carried out the assassination. I've just learned to be cautious about making guesses when it comes to such claims, however. Just as the Shia are hardly one big happy family, neither are the Sunnis or for that matter the Kurds. Factionalism is a fact of life in Iraq, after all.

starfleet_dude: "AQ in Mesopotamia"??

you mean AQI (AQ in Iraq). They're very PROUD of their name, and have spent a lot on T-shirts, coffee mugs, etc to "build the brand", so we try to name them correctly.

Don't want ya to get FATWA'ed

We've had so much misleading propaganda about Iraq already that it's long since lost any effectiveness it might have once had.

Dude, it doesn't matter what you believe to be true. Papa Ray is right: what matters is if Abu Risha's tribe believes it to be true.

It's important to remember that the Sheik in question was a murderer, thief, bandit, and general ne-er-do-well. I don't cheer for his death, but I don't cry for it either; he wasn't exactly an upstanding fellow.

State your proof, C'horn.

"AQ in Mesopotamia"

It's what they've been calling themselves for sometime now, since November, 2004 anyway:

Last week, in a statement posted to the Internet, the group announced it was changing its name to ''Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia," while Zarqawi appeared to offer his services and his loyalty, formally, to bin Laden.

It's not a big deal what they're named, IMO.

Dude, it doesn't matter what you believe to be true. Papa Ray is right: what matters is if Abu Risha's tribe believes it to be true.

As if no one will have any suspicions about any other possible party being responsible. Come on, pull my finger. This is Iraq, for cryin' out loud, where the enemy of my enemy is my friend, unless he's my enemy.

starfleet_dude: "Last week, in a statement posted to the Internet, the group announced it was changing its name to ''Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia,"

Did they change their Stock Symbol too???

I don't care if they change their name to "Michael Moore's Morons"...they are STILL the IRAQ-based wing of alQueda.

Terry,

www.time. com/time/world/article/0,8599,1627400,00.html

"Sheikh Sattar, whose tribe is notorious for highway banditry, is also building a personal militia, loyal not to the Iraqi government but only to him. Other tribes — even those who want no truck with terrorists — complain they are being forced to kowtow to him. Those who refuse risk being branded as friends of al-Qaeda and tossed in jail, or worse. In Baghdad, government delight at the Anbar Front's impact on al-Qaeda is tempered by concern that the Marines have unwittingly turned Sheikh Sattar into a warlord who will turn the province into his personal fiefdom."

The Yell,

The best possible outcomes in Iraq are worse then either NATO or the Marshall plan; let's see.

At the very least, we're talking about a 5-10 year commitment, to the tune of a few trillion dollars. Thousands more American troops will die. And what will we have gained?

We will have created an Shiite Islaamic state with ties to Iran. There's not much doubt about this fact.

We will have denied AQ the ability to have training bases in Iraq. This isn't a bad thing. But the world is a pretty big place; there's lots of other countries they can set up shop in. We've spent a huge amount of money and lives in order to deny them a relatively small and unimportant zone of operations.

I think, in large part, that the idea of losing the battle is worse to many here then any of the realities of losing the battle. We aren't losing in Iraq b/c we are weak, but because our plans were weak and the leadership was weak.

I would invite people to read accounts of post-WW2 Japan; when you read about the slavish devotion that many of the Japanese had for the American leadership, who positioned themselves as teachers instead of occupiers, who rebuilt the industry of the area without selling the place out to American corporations, you will see an example of how occupations SHOULD be done and the many contrasts between that, and how this one was handled. Whether or not you agree with the wisdom of attacking Iraq, there's no doubt in anyone's mind that the occupation was handled terribly and we are currently suffering the results of the poor leadership.

Folks:

I have grown tired of the arguments that never change. Both sides of the debate think they are correct but only one side is capable of rational thought.

SF Dude and the Cyclops are at best foolish hangers on to the new neo-Nazis whose world is contained in Kos, DU and moveon.org and at worst true to the modern brown shirt ethic. I never spent much time arguing with the old neo-Nazis why should I spend time on the new ones
.

Jerry,

I consider your slanderous labelling of me as a 'neo-nazi' to not only be highly inaccurate but insulting in the extreme. It is a base lie, and one without either supporting opinion nor logical argument to back it up; I would demand that you retract your words immediately, but I have not been given any indicator that your personal morality exists whatsoever, let alone is developed enough to expect you to critically examine your own bias.

The contrast between your first paragraph and your second would lead any objective viewer to believe that you think that the anti-war crowd are the only ones who are capable of rational thought; you, through your cowardly and base slurs, certainly are not expressing rational through or seriousness in your argument.

Cyclops:

You may find it offensive but too bad. I call it as I see it. You are regular poster to Kos. Kos links to neo-Nazi sites because he hates Jews. He and his site qualify for the term new neo-Nazis

The leftwing blogosphere opposes the war for two reasons. The first is simple and raw hatred of George Bush. The second, and most important, is their views on the Middle East. These views have been formed in an atmosphere dominated by Edward Said's Orientalism. Said was student of and mentored by Professor Paul De Man. De Man was a Nazi collaborator in wartime Belgium and his uncle/childhood guardian was the head of the Belgian Nazi party. De Man also was instrumental in the rehabilitation of the philosopher Martin Heidegger who was Hitler’s Minister of Education. Heidegger was unrepentant until the day he died. Now if you may not know the intellectual history behind your beliefs then you are merely ignorant in which case I suppose that I overstated things. However, if you are familiar with Said’s writings and you agree with him then I say guilty as charged.

Jerry,

A classic straw man argument; useless as it is pathetic.

Which neo-nazi sites are linked to by 'Kos?' Your slanderous labeling of him as a 'jew hater' has neither factual evidence nor logical argument to back it up. You are engaging in the worst sort of character assassination and really should stop.

You don't know what my 'beliefs' are, let alone the history behind them. Don't presume that you do.

I can't for the life of me figure out why the commentators on this site can't discuss the situations we find ourselves in, without resorting to insult, slander, lies, and downright childish behavior. I find it extremely telling that those who claim the moral high ground, so often display very little morality or judgment when posting. I don't want to tar everyone with the same brush; there are many intelligent posters here who are more then willing to discuss issues and events without resorting to foolishness such as that espoused by Jerry. But there are a depressing number of people here who, in the face of superior arguments, seem to think that character assassination of someone who they have never met and know nothing about is an adequate substitute for logical argument and reasoned thought. It is not.

Before scratching your heads and wondering how so many Americans could be against you and the war effort, you may want to examine the sheer volume of hateful rhetoric which seems to be fully accepted amongst the right-wing; at least, those who post online these days.

Jerry, guilt by association isn't reasoning, it's a logical fallacy that doesn't improve even when repeated over and over and over again.

Edward Said is someone few have heard about, and even fewer have read. So to say that Said has "dominated" the left is as silly as saying that someone like Leo Strauss has "dominated" the right. Name-dropping is not the same thing as having a genuine influence on politics.

The only explanation necessary for the current unpopularity of George W. Bush is that he started a war that he then made a mess out of. It doesn't take a lot of deep analysis to understand that, or why a majority of Americans no longer trust Bush on the war in Iraq.

Cyclops:

Earlier in the year Kos linked to a video "documenting" the control Israel has over US policy on a neo-Nazi site. When he was called on it he, in fine Orwellian fashion, removed the link but then gave the address with the excuse that even though it came from a neo-Nazi site it was a good video that made excellent points. Nothing goes away on the net so you should be able to find it.

SF Dude:

The entire field of Middle East Studies was turned on its head by Said's work. It was a product of true De Manian deconstruction and it forms the basis of the left's views of on Israel and the Palestinians. Before Orientalism the left supported the Palestinian cause only because the Soviet Union did not because of any other reason. However, after Orientalism Said managed to elevate the Palestinians into the forefront of so-called progressive international causes. Increasingly, despite the protestations to the contrary, it became a generator of anti-Semitism and has been instrumental in legitimizing anti-Semitism throughout the world.

Said’s association with De Man is important because there is no doubt that the intellectual origins of deconstruction are found in the forces that generated the Nazi movement. The fact that his mentor was a Nazi collaborator and the target of Said’s work on the Middle East was Jewish is no coincidence.

If the American people thing the way you claim it has more to do with the relentless attacks on him in the Democratic Party controlled MSM since before he was elected President. Now I would agree that most of these attacks are purely partisan and not motivated by anything more then expediency but the effect has been the same. It has enabled the power of the new neo-Nazis at moveon.org etc an inordinate power to control the Democratic Party agenda.

Jerry,

I have been unable to locate the post you have alleged was made on Kos (you do realize that the vast majority of material on that site isn't posted by him, right?). You apparently fail to realize that the Burden of Proof lies with those who make affirmative statements; I specifically call upon you to link to the post in question, or withdraw your baseless and scurrilous accusations.

Let the "progressives" keep moaning about lose-lose scenarios.

Our troops will keep winning the war.

It's probably stupid of me, I know, but when it comes to Iraq, I trust the troops' opinions over those of Democrat politicians and lefty blog posters.

I trust General "Betray Us" (brilliant lefty PR debacle, by the way) over Chris Matthews, Keith Olbermann, Hillary, Obama, Schumer, Durbin, Reid, Pelosi, and all the other posturing aging corrupt weirdos who polluted my TV screen a couple days ago.

When people repeat stupid-ass talking-point lies, such as "We're arming the Sunnis," then it's safe to dismiss them as empty-headed parrots who aren't interested in serious discussion.

The issue is far too important to waste time talking about it with zombies who can't even think for themselves.

Cyclops:

I call your bluff and I bet you found it because it is the first entry in a google search:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/16/165557/148

Here is what Kos says after the usual fake apology:

"... Anyway, I'm happy to know that more people watch the original content of the documentary, contrary to those minority who went around focusing their critic on web links that appeared in it rather than addressing the main subject. It is obvious that some people would always look for something to distract the attention from the main subject here, which is pro-Israel lobby and AIPAC"

So does that satisfy you?

So what do you think the Sunnis are doing with all the money the U.S. is giving them, Tom W.? Lawyering up?

As for the U.S. "winning", how do you really think the military can win a civil war in someone else's country? First, the U.S. deposed Saddam and the Shia took power thanks to an alliance with the Kurds. The Kurds on the other hand are still intent on trying to carve out their own autonomous Kurdistan, including the disputed oil fields around Kirkuk, and really don't want to be subject to a central Iraqi government. The Sunnis, being on the short end of the stick of all this, are the ones responsible for most of the violence in Iraq and until very recently were not exactly America's best friends. Now however, they're on our side as long as we also give them support. It seems to me that the U.S. is being just as much gamed by the natives as we're playing them, which is to be expected. Unfortunately the only strategy in evidence is the one that has President Bush running out the clock until his term in office is up and Iraq becomes someone else's problem.

Jerry,

Can you read? The title of the diary:

"Portrait of a Great Taboo: The Power of the Israel Lobby in the United States
by Sabbah "

That wasn't written by Kos, but by one of the diarists there - essentially an anonymous user of the site. The italics at the bottom weren't written by Kos, but by the author of the piece, who edited the link to point away from the neo-nazi site.

You should try and do a little more research before engaging in baseless and pointless character assassination. Anyone who wants to, can sign up for an account and post a Diary at Kos. You could. It doesn't mean that everyone on the site supports the views of the diarist who is writing a story.

I'm afraid, sir, I will not be satisfied until you attempt to act like a man and withdraw your baseless and useless allegations about my character. Calling someone a Neo-Nazi - with absolutely ZERO proof - is below low and really reflects poorly upon you as a person.

jerry,

It is rare for me to disagree with you, but in this case (however reluctantly) I think that I should.

I don't think that starfleet_dude or The Idiot Cycloptichorn are nazis of any stripe. I've never read any posts by them that I can recall in which they expressed any particular anti-Semitism. Despite their occasional preening about how well-read they are, I doubt that they know much about Edward Said or that their world views are influenced at all by him and his work (honestly, I know nothing of the man beyond his name). Indeed, I'd wager that their philosophies are grounded in nothing more weighty than "Farenheit 9-11", Kos, and Ted Rall cartoons. They simply hate George Bush; this is the alpha and the omega of their world views. I'm sure that they hate Israel, but this is simply a lefty knee-jerk reaction that is not based on any real anti-Semitism but rather on a misplaced sympathy for the Palestinians, who (as you correctly note) have been portrayed as innocent victims of the Israeli war machine even while they blow up buses and restaurants full of Israeli civilians.

That starfleet_dude or The Idiot Cycloptichorn are typical mindless lefties is clear. That they openly, proudly and treasonously root for the defeat of our country is obvious. That they deserve nothing but contempt is unquestionable.

But calling them nazis is unwarranted and over the top. I hope you will reconsider your statement, not because they deserve the courtesy and consideration due between honest citizens but rather because you don't want to cheapen yourself by sinking to a level of rhetoric that is typical of the brainless and malignent left.

Thanks for the back-handed support, Doc. We really appreciate your encouraging an end to the baseless attacks upon our character, by using slightly less odious - but no less false - attacks upon our character.

I would state for the record that I do not 'hate' GWB in the slightest. I voted for him in 2000. I am merely disappointed with his conduct since that time, and feel that much of it has to do with the poor choices he has made in advisers.

Why, Doc, is it necessary for you to insult people who you don't agree with? Is not the strength of your argumentation enough to get your point across? Do you gain some personal pleasure out of doing so? I truly don't understand why you feel it is necessary to load up each post with personal invective.

jerry, it was the diary's author who changed the link to what seems to have been a web source for the video that contained links to neo-Nazi sites. That the diary's author changed the link to point to another site is to be expected, IMO. Guilt by association is not proof of anything except an ad hominem attack by the person making the association.

As for Edward Said's influence on the field of Middle Eastern Studies, that's certainly true enough. But it's still far from having having an influence on the entire American left.

Cyclops:

I did read it but the clincher is on the bottom line that I quoted and will requote:

""... Anyway, I'm happy to know that more people watch the original content of the documentary, contrary to those minority who went around focusing their critic on web links that appeared in it rather than addressing the main subject. It is obvious that some people would always look for something to distract the attention from the main subject here, which is pro-Israel lobby and AIPAC"

The great taboo is that the "Jooos control America." He makes it clear that he agrees with content despite its source and is "happy to know that more people watched it..." He agrees with the message while claiming to disagree with the messenger. The only reason he removed the link was because he suffered embarrassment and not because he was in fundamental disagreement with it. Furthermore, to claim that he doesn’t control who posts on his site is pure BS. He is merely using the time tested method of having someone else state his views while maintaining deniability. One his heroes Yassar Arafat was a master at it.

Here is the difference between the old neo-Nazis (and real Nazis) and the new ones. The old kind made no attempts to disguise their beliefs. The new ones like Kos call their opponents Nazis while they behave like it. It is part and parcel to their post-modern origins that inverts reality. Nazism becomes anti-Nazism and anti-Nazism becomes Nazism.

Cycloptichorn says:

I would invite people to read accounts of post-WW2 Japan; when you read about the slavish devotion that many of the Japanese had for the American leadership, who positioned themselves as teachers instead of occupiers, who rebuilt the industry of the area without selling the place out to American corporations, you will see an example of how occupations SHOULD be done and the many contrasts between that, and how this one was handled. Whether or not you agree with the wisdom of attacking Iraq, there's no doubt in anyone's mind that the occupation was handled terribly and we are currently suffering the results of the poor leadership.
*****************************************
Well, the occupation of Japan made a number of errors that took time to correct just as is the case of Iraq.

My mother was with 8th army in the occupation and the restrictions upon Japanese exports after the war were devastating. All the Japanese from the extended empire came back to homeland Japan and overcrowed the islands at the same time and with little exports, they had to turn to subsistence agriculture. Unionist and American industrialists did not want competition from them and opposed freeing trade.

My mother had a photo presentation she used to make presentations on her trips back home showing rice planted up into the railroad ballast along rail lines as they tried to use every peice of open ground. There were letters from MacArther pleading for policy change that she carried with her. The Marshall plan that actually started rebuilding their industries came several years after the war; once we realized that we might be pushing countries towards the Communists.

Japan did not have to deal with a Syria or Iran fomenting insurrection, sabotage and assasination of anyone who cooperated with us; so the current situation is more difficult. Nevertheless the same pattern of error and then correction we see now took place then as well.

Our "small footprint" idea with troops avoiding the public and going home to big bases just meant that anyone who worked with us got killed. Finally Kagan et.al. said we have to get into the communities of the people and offer protection before they can cooperate and then they will help us.

That is exactly what is happening now. The idea that we are staying the course and there has been no change could not be more wrong. We have completely changed our stategy and now the people who are sick of Al Queda's cruelty and mindless rules are making the choice people always make when free to pick between freedom and tyranny, assistance versus plunder.

One could have said we blew the occupation of Germany (my Dad was in the occupation there) and the occupation of Japan and just abondon the place when things looked bleak in 1946 and 1947 but we did not. We knew it would lead to their fall to communist influence; we made changes, and stuck to them until they were able to sustain their own freedom. Similar resolution in Iraq will achieve, I believe, a similar result.

Doc:

I understand where you are on this but remember totalitarian movements rely on the cyclops and SF Dudes of the world as mindless foot soldiers of the movement. The fact that they are relatively ignorant on the subject is no excuse for their mindlessly parroting the KOS/Moveon.org line. In the age of the internet they become instruments of dissemination of totalitarian viewpoints. Maybe this exchange will cause them to reconsider their position if they are intelligent enough to explore the issues raised here.

SF Dude's last response is a good example. He obviously doesn't know how much of today's progressive position on the Middle East is a direct result of Said's Orientalism. De Man and his students have had a huge effect on the modern progressive movement. In a way it is one the biggest academic jokes played upon the American Left. One man, Paul De Man, through his influence of a generation of students at Yale has managed to redefine leftwing thought from Marx to Georges Sorel without them knowing what is going on.

Below is from the Wikopedia about the Marshall plan: As you can see quite to the contrary of building the occupied nations industries, we were in effect destroying it. And the policy lasted for years.

"The dismantling of German industry continued, and in 1949 Konrad Adenauer wrote to the Allies requesting that it end, citing the inherent contradiction between encouraging industrial growth and removing factories and also the unpopularity of the policy.[11] (See also Adenauers original letter to Schuman, Ernest Bevins letter to Robert Schuman urging a reconsideration of the dismantling policy.) Support for dismantling was by this time coming predominantly from the French, and the Petersberg Agreement of November 1949 reduced the levels vastly, though dismantling of minor factories continued until 1951.[12]"

We figured things out a little faster in Iraq I guess and now under our new approach, reconstruction efforts follow in after the clear and hold process takes place.

Either we were stupider in the past than Cyclops thinks or we are smarter now than he gives us credit for.

KW64, comparing the war and occupation of Iraq with Japan, German, and South Korea misses the salient fact that the strife in Iraq comes from within, mostly from the Sunnis who were knocked off the top of the totem pole after Saddam Hussein's fall. It's an insurgency that is fueled by ethnic and religious difference within Iraq, and while Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia the U.S. and Turkey all have their own various interests in Iraq, they are not truly a part of what amounts to a civil war there.

FYI, Morganthau's proposal to de-industrialize Germany was rejected by Truman and never got off the ground to begin with. What limited Germany's immediate re-industrialization was a devastated Europe and the opposition of the Soviet Union, which was still a tentative ally in 1946 and early 1947.

"If al-Qaeda hoped to win the Sunni tribes in western Iraq back to their banner, they severely miscalculated in their assassination of Sheikh Abdul-Sattar Abu Risha. "

If this was, in fact, an al Qaeda assassination, I suspect it was designed to grab attention in Washington, not Iraq. In that regard, it would not be a miscalculation at all.

SF Dude's last response is a good example. He obviously doesn't know how much of today's progressive position on the Middle East is a direct result of Said's Orientalism.

I freely confess to having not reading Said's work (too many good history books, too little time), but I do know that that his Orientalism isn't a political agenda per se, but rather a refutation of the myopic way the West has viewed the Middle East. Said was an activist who favored an independent Palestine, but that sentiment is something that hardly originated with him. Anyway, progressive politics is influenced far more by mundane domestic concerns than by academic debates on the history of colonialism in the Middle East

Jerry,

What, specifically, are you accusing me of 'mindlessly parroting?' I didn't say a word about any topic relating to Israel whatsoever, before you launched a baseless and insulting personal attack against my character.

Starfleet Dude

The American Civil war was surely a civil war too but we did not call it hopeless and quit-- we stuck it out and won. Reconstruction (Occupation?) was a mess but we stuck it out and things turned out OK.

The problem with the impatience with the nation-building in Iraq is primarily with the impatience. Things take time, they always have. Things go wrong such as Sheikh Abdul-Sattar Abu Risha' assasination, they always will. Strategies that do not work have to be changed and people need to be willing to adjust to the battlefield conditions and changes by the enemy.

But now we want 100% perfect resolutions and we want them now or many will just quit. Insisting that only perfection will do becomes an ally of the bad-- in this case, Al Queda and Iran. We can mourn the Sheik but we should not be shaken by his loss.

Well KW64, it was OUR Civil War so no wonder we stuck it out!

As for 100% perfect resolutions, after over four years with no resolutions in sight after much happy talk from the White House claiming things were getting better all the time in Iraq, it's not like anyone is asking President Bush for perfection at this point, let along expecting it.

jerry,

Yes, the duo in question certainly fit the description of Lenin's "useful fools", but I still think "nazi" is inappropriate. starfleet_dude and The Idiot Cycloptichorn want us to lose in Iraq because they hate George Bush, not because they hate Jews.

As for "mindless parroting": if they weren't "mindless", they wouldn't be liberals in the first place.

There is a small debate going on about the Marshall Plan and how the lessons of history apply to today. The comments remind me of an excellent quote I read the other day (wish I knew the source):

(paraphrase) "History is just different enough from the present that all sides can claim that the lessons one should learn from the past don't really apply."

The Idiot Cycloptichorn,

When you sing the praises of our occupation of Japan after World War II, you might want to consider a few other factors that just MIGHT have made it a bit easier than the situation in Iraq:

1. The Japanese were thoroughly whipped by us. Nothing says "shock and awe" like two A-bombs (or do you think we should have leveled Baghdad, Tikrit, and Fallujah like we leveled Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki?).

2. The Emporer, who was all but worshipped as a god by the Japanese, remained on his throne and directed his people to cooperate with the Americans (Somehow, I don't think too many people in America or Iraq would have been pleased if we'd left Saddam alive even as a figurehead).

3. The US ran Japan as the occupying power until a formal peace treaty was signed on Sept. 1, 1951, SIX YEARS after their surrender (Libs like to sneer that we're occupying Iraq even while they bitch about the lack of progress by the elected Iraqi government. You can't have it both ways...).

4. Japan is perhaps the most racially homogenous nation on earth; there was no racial / religious / ethnic strife between different groups of Japanese as there is between different groups of Iraqis.

I find it fascinating that you bring up Japan as a model. We conservatives often bring up Germany and Japan (and the South after the Civil War, for that matter) as evidence that we CAN remake a country into a peaceful democracy. Naturally, Benedict Arnolds like you scoff at the idea. Perhaps you'd care to comments on some of these quotes:

The first of the major objectives of the occupation has been largely accomplished. Japan is no longer, and in the foreseeable future cannot possibly become, a threat to world peace and security. Japanese armed forces at home and abroad have been completely disarmed, demobilized, and, with the exception of several hundred thousand remaining in the Soviet-controlled areas, returned to their homes, in accordance with promises made at Potsdam. Japan's once-powerful navy and airforce have been demolished, and the industrial machine which provided her military masters with the sinews of aggressive war has been destroyed or reconverted to meet the urgent peacetime needs of the Japanese people. No vestige remains of the armed might which briefly engulfed vast areas of the Pacific and threatened wider conquests. - BG Frayne Baker, USA, "The Occupation of Japan" (January 1, 1948) (1)

It's almost like he's saying "Mission Accomplished", eh? Or maybe he's just another military liar, carrying water for George Bush... er, President Truman, I should say.

Thus the stage has been set. The Occupation has provided the Japanese people their first real opportunity to take charge of their own destiny and to build for themselves a peaceful and constructive future. They and they alone will determine whether they can successfully adapt their way of life to new conditions of existence.

Already there have been gratifying indications that the roots of democracy have taken hold. In two national elections, the men and women of Japan demonstrated their deep interest in assuming the full responsibilities of popular government. The Diet has become increasingly aware of the importance as the official voice of a free people and the supreme organ of the democratic state. Elements of the population long under the heel of feudal tradition and oppressive state power--women, tenant farmers, workers, and political minorities--have taken increasing advantage of the newly-won rights. Ibid.

BG Baker writes that Japan was on the road to becoming a democracy because they'd had national elections with high turnout. Wait... Hasn't the same thing happened in Iraq?

The key to the progress of Western civilization over the centuries has been the growth of human liberty and the ever-widening scope granted to the freedom, rights, and dignity of the individual. The struggle to achieve the ideals of political democracy against the intrenched power of dictators and oligarchs has been long, bitter, and never-ending.

Today these precious rights, gained through untold sacrifice of inspired and stout-hearted men and women in many lands, are seriously imperiled. Weak and despairing peoples are being lured by the siren song of a deceptive economic "security" to yield their hard-won freedoms to a new despotism. Masked under the shiny facade of radical economic progress and drastic social reform, it seeks by violence and chicanery to re-impose the age-old tyrannies which kept the spirit of man enslaved for countless generations. The tragedy is that once human rights are lightly bartered for the mirage of economic "security," there is no recourse but to begin again the ancient drawn-out struggle for political independence.

Faced with this urgent challenge, the democratic nations of the world must clearly demonstrate that only a society governed by the free will of the people and giving full play to the hopes, aspirations, and capacities of the individual can provide the material progress upon which real social and economic welfare are based. Ibid.

Hmmm... Was BG Baker talking about communism or islamofascism?

A few years later, another Army officer looked back with pride at what the United States had done in Japan:

A year later, in the second general election, the effect of the occupation's decentralization program was seen. Under a new local autonomy law, elections were held for prefectural governors, city mayors, village headmen and assembly members. Nearly 2400 women ran for national and local office and more than 800 were elected, including 10 to the Diet's upper house. Women at last had a voice in governmental affairs.

SCAP's directive establishing civil liberties--issued a few weeks after the occupation began--was followed by instructions that labor unions be encouraged. The Diet passed a law guaranteeing workers the right to organize and bargain collectively. Unions were forced at an unprecedented rate. Labor organizations and their memberships jumped from five unions with 5300 members in October 1945 to 36,000 unions with nearly 7,000,000 members by the middle of 1949. - COL M.P. Echols, USA, "Japan Since VJ Day" (September 1, 1950) (2)

Libs like to sneer that you can't force democracy on people at gun point.

Um, yes, you can...

I found this quite interesting:

Prior to the surrender, health and welfare activities that existed in Japan were primitive and inefficient. Public water and sewage systems, which existed only in the larger cities, had suffered damage. Environmental sanitation was virtually non-existent, presenting a threat of dysentery, typhoid and typhus epidemics. Ibid.

Sounds like Iraq when we got there, don't you think?

As it happens, I recently watched an old Kurosawa film, "Stray Dog", which was filmed in Tokyo in 1949. The place looked like a third would country: dirty, run down, filled with begars, hungry people dressed in shabby, ill-fitting clothes, rampant crime. Guess we should have given up in that quagmire, eh? Or maybe, having destroyed the Japanese military clique, we should have just left the country to its own devices. After all, if democracy is going to take root in a country, the people have to do it themselves with no help from anybody else, wouldn't you agree?

But we stuck around and helped out:

Smallpox, which was becoming increasingly dangerous, has been practically eliminated as a major public health problem through vaccination of Japan's entire population. Typhus fever, endemic in Japan for years, has been dealt with through the vaccinating of nearly 9,000,000 people and the dusting of 48,000,000 with DDT. At least 34,000,000 persons were immunized against cholera. Japan's diphtheria rate was reduced 83 per cent by instructing Japanese pharmaceutical plants on how to make the necessary toxoid and by immunizing several million school children. Improvement of sanitation and water supplies, the control of insects and rodents, and an immunization program brought decreases in dysentery and typhoid by more than 85 per cent. Ibid.

We're doing this sort of thing in Iraq while fighting the terrorists. O' course, to the Benedict Arnolds and their MSM mouthpieces, the only things worth reporting from Iraq are American body counts, spiced up with the occasional hysterical story about American "atrocities".

Progress toward economic rehabilitation is reflected in the fact that industrial production, which gained 30 per cent from July 1948 to July 1949, continued its upward trend. Production rates in coal, utilities and other basic industries have approached and in some cases surpassed pre-war levels. Ibid.

Wow. FIVE YEARS after the war, SOME utilities and industrial activities were at pre-war levels??? Does COL Echols really mean to say that the Army didn't have the lights on, the water running, and the A/C humming all over Japan within a few months of victory? QUAGMIRE!

I could go on, but I think some readers (probably not you) get the point: the "shining example" of our occupation of Japan bears considerable resemblence to our effort in Iraq. Note that I don't call it an occupation: we handed over authority to a duly constituted Iraqi government far faster than MacArthur turned over authority in Japan to the Japanese. I believe that, if we stick with it in Iraq as we did in Japan and Germany, we and the Iraqis will have the same successes as we, the Japanese and the Germans had sixty years ago.

-----------------------

(1) http://www.army.mil/-news/1948/01/01/4614-occupation-of-japan/index.html

(2) http://www.army.mil/-news/1950/09/01/4611-japan-since-vj-day/index.html

jerry,

Yes, the duo in question certainly fit the description of Lenin's "useful fools", but I still think "nazi" is inappropriate. starfleet_dude and The Idiot Cycloptichorn want us to lose in Iraq because they hate George Bush, not because they hate Jews.

As for "mindless parroting": if they weren't "mindless", they wouldn't be liberals in the first place.

There is a small debate going on about the Marshall Plan and how the lessons of history apply to today. The comments remind me of an excellent quote I read the other day (wish I knew the source):

(paraphrase) "History is just different enough from the present that all sides can claim that the lessons one should learn from the past don't really apply."

The Idiot Cycloptichorn,

When you sing the praises of our occupation of Japan after World War II, you might want to consider a few other factors that just MIGHT have made it a bit easier than the situation in Iraq:

1. The Japanese were thoroughly whipped by us. Nothing says "shock and awe" like two A-bombs (or do you think we should have leveled Baghdad, Tikrit, and Fallujah like we leveled Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki?).

2. The Emporer, who was all but worshipped as a god by the Japanese, remained on his throne and directed his people to cooperate with the Americans (Somehow, I don't think too many people in America or Iraq would have been pleased if we'd left Saddam alive even as a figurehead).

3. The US ran Japan as the occupying power until a formal peace treaty was signed on Sept. 1, 1951, SIX YEARS after their surrender (Libs like to sneer that we're occupying Iraq even while they bitch about the lack of progress by the elected Iraqi government. You can't have it both ways...).

4. Japan is perhaps the most racially homogenous nation on earth; there was no racial / religious / ethnic strife between different groups of Japanese as there is between different groups of Iraqis.

I find it fascinating that you bring up Japan as a model. We conservatives often bring up Germany and Japan (and the South after the Civil War, for that matter) as evidence that we CAN remake a country into a peaceful democracy. Naturally, Benedict Arnolds like you scoff at the idea. Perhaps you'd care to comments on some of these quotes:

The first of the major objectives of the occupation has been largely accomplished. Japan is no longer, and in the foreseeable future cannot possibly become, a threat to world peace and security. Japanese armed forces at home and abroad have been completely disarmed, demobilized, and, with the exception of several hundred thousand remaining in the Soviet-controlled areas, returned to their homes, in accordance with promises made at Potsdam. Japan's once-powerful navy and airforce have been demolished, and the industrial machine which provided her military masters with the sinews of aggressive war has been destroyed or reconverted to meet the urgent peacetime needs of the Japanese people. No vestige remains of the armed might which briefly engulfed vast areas of the Pacific and threatened wider conquests. - BG Frayne Baker, USA, "The Occupation of Japan" (January 1, 1948) (1)

It's almost like he's saying "Mission Accomplished", eh? Or maybe he's just another military liar, carrying water for George Bush... er, President Truman, I should say.

Thus the stage has been set. The Occupation has provided the Japanese people their first real opportunity to take charge of their own destiny and to build for themselves a peaceful and constructive future. They and they alone will determine whether they can successfully adapt their way of life to new conditions of existence.

Already there have been gratifying indications that the roots of democracy have taken hold. In two national elections, the men and women of Japan demonstrated their deep interest in assuming the full responsibilities of popular government. The Diet has become increasingly aware of the importance as the official voice of a free people and the supreme organ of the democratic state. Elements of the population long under the heel of feudal tradition and oppressive state power--women, tenant farmers, workers, and political minorities--have taken increasing advantage of the newly-won rights. Ibid.

BG Baker writes that Japan was on the road to becoming a democracy because they'd had national elections with high turnout. Wait... Hasn't the same thing happened in Iraq?

The key to the progress of Western civilization over the centuries has been the growth of human liberty and the ever-widening scope granted to the freedom, rights, and dignity of the individual. The struggle to achieve the ideals of political democracy against the intrenched power of dictators and oligarchs has been long, bitter, and never-ending.

Today these precious rights, gained through untold sacrifice of inspired and stout-hearted men and women in many lands, are seriously imperiled. Weak and despairing peoples are being lured by the siren song of a deceptive economic "security" to yield their hard-won freedoms to a new despotism. Masked under the shiny facade of radical economic progress and drastic social reform, it seeks by violence and chicanery to re-impose the age-old tyrannies which kept the spirit of man enslaved for countless generations. The tragedy is that once human rights are lightly bartered for the mirage of economic "security," there is no recourse but to begin again the ancient drawn-out struggle for political independence.

Faced with this urgent challenge, the democratic nations of the world must clearly demonstrate that only a society governed by the free will of the people and giving full play to the hopes, aspirations, and capacities of the individual can provide the material progress upon which real social and economic welfare are based. Ibid.

Hmmm... Was BG Baker talking about communism or islamofascism?

A few years later, another Army officer looked back with pride at what the United States had done in Japan:

A year later, in the second general election, the effect of the occupation's decentralization program was seen. Under a new local autonomy law, elections were held for prefectural governors, city mayors, village headmen and assembly members. Nearly 2400 women ran for national and local office and more than 800 were elected, including 10 to the Diet's upper house. Women at last had a voice in governmental affairs.

SCAP's directive establishing civil liberties--issued a few weeks after the occupation began--was followed by instructions that labor unions be encouraged. The Diet passed a law guaranteeing workers the right to organize and bargain collectively. Unions were forced at an unprecedented rate. Labor organizations and their memberships jumped from five unions with 5300 members in October 1945 to 36,000 unions with nearly 7,000,000 members by the middle of 1949. - COL M.P. Echols, USA, "Japan Since VJ Day" (September 1, 1950) (2)

Libs like to sneer that you can't force democracy on people at gun point.

Um, yes, you can...

I found this quite interesting:

Prior to the surrender, health and welfare activities that existed in Japan were primitive and inefficient. Public water and sewage systems, which existed only in the larger cities, had suffered damage. Environmental sanitation was virtually non-existent, presenting a threat of dysentery, typhoid and typhus epidemics. Ibid.

Sounds like Iraq when we got there, don't you think?

As it happens, I recently watched an old Kurosawa film, "Stray Dog", which was filmed in Tokyo in 1949. The place looked like a third would country: dirty, run down, filled with begars, hungry people dressed in shabby, ill-fitting clothes, rampant crime. Guess we should have given up in that quagmire, eh? Or maybe, having destroyed the Japanese military clique, we should have just left the country to its own devices. After all, if democracy is going to take root in a country, the people have to do it themselves with no help from anybody else, wouldn't you agree?

But we stuck around and helped out:

Smallpox, which was becoming increasingly dangerous, has been practically eliminated as a major public health problem through vaccination of Japan's entire population. Typhus fever, endemic in Japan for years, has been dealt with through the vaccinating of nearly 9,000,000 people and the dusting of 48,000,000 with DDT. At least 34,000,000 persons were immunized against cholera. Japan's diphtheria rate was reduced 83 per cent by instructing Japanese pharmaceutical plants on how to make the necessary toxoid and by immunizing several million school children. Improvement of sanitation and water supplies, the control of insects and rodents, and an immunization program brought decreases in dysentery and typhoid by more than 85 per cent. Ibid.

We're doing this sort of thing in Iraq while fighting the terrorists. O' course, to the Benedict Arnolds and their MSM mouthpieces, the only things worth reporting from Iraq are American body counts, spiced up with the occasional hysterical story about American "atrocities".

Progress toward economic rehabilitation is reflected in the fact that industrial production, which gained 30 per cent from July 1948 to July 1949, continued its upward trend. Production rates in coal, utilities and other basic industries have approached and in some cases surpassed pre-war levels. Ibid.

Wow. FIVE YEARS after the war, SOME utilities and industrial activities were at pre-war levels??? Does COL Echols really mean to say that the Army didn't have the lights on, the water running, and the A/C humming all over Japan within a few months of victory? QUAGMIRE!

I could go on, but I think some readers (probably not you) get the point: the "shining example" of our occupation of Japan bears considerable resemblence to our effort in Iraq. Note that I don't call it an occupation: we handed over authority to a duly constituted Iraqi government far faster than MacArthur turned over authority in Japan to the Japanese. I believe that, if we stick with it in Iraq as we did in Japan and Germany, we and the Iraqis will have the same successes as we, the Japanese and the Germans had sixty years ago.

-----------------------

(1) http://www.army.mil/-news/1948/01/01/4614-occupation-of-japan/index.html

(2) http://www.army.mil/-news/1950/09/01/4611-japan-since-vj-day/index.html

"We will have created an Shiite Islaamic state with ties to Iran. There's not much doubt about this fact."

There's plenty of doubt, as it is a secular state full of Muslims many of whom are Shiite, not a state dedicated to the fulfillment of Islam with a Judicial Council of imams with veto power over the legislature and executive and judicial branches. Great Britain has ties with Iran. The Vatican has ties with Iran. South Africa has ties with Iran. The nations refusing diplomatic and trade ties with Iran is fairly short.

"We will have denied AQ the ability to have training bases in Iraq. This isn't a bad thing. But the world is a pretty big place; there's lots of other countries they can set up shop in. We've spent a huge amount of money and lives in order to deny them a relatively small and unimportant zone of operations."

Wrong. Their zone of operations would be global. Given a chance they would recreate their Afghan experience, with 50,000 world recruits gathered for training.

"We aren't losing in Iraq b/c we are weak, but because our plans were weak and the leadership was weak."

We aren't losing in Iraq at all. You make clear you don't want to pay the price or take the time. That's self-imposed defeat.

I have read about postwar Japan, and I know that MacArthur ruled with an iron fist in an iron glove, that he made clear Japan would have to earn its national independence by meeting American standards. We called our forces the Army of Occupation and awarded them service ribbons for the Occupation of Japan.

"As for the U.S. "winning", how do you really think the military can win a civil war in someone else's country? "

Ask those Soviet AAA gunners who helped shoot at McCain.

SF Dude:

If you haven't read it how can know what influence it has had? I will give you three names: Juan Cole, Robert Fisk and John Esposito. They are three of the most influential people in Middle East Studies. All three are disciples of Edward Said. By the way none of the three seem to be interested in the fate of Palestinians when Israel is not involved. I suppose that I should give you a pass based on your lack of knowledge of the state of Middle Eastern Studies and the impetus that it has given to worldwide anti-Semitism.

Cyclops:

You seem to be having cognitive dissonance problems. You need to address the question of Kos's endorsement of the views espoused in an anti-Semitic video on a neo-Nazi site. There is no escaping the fact that the messenger is the message.

The Yell says "...We aren't losing in Iraq at all..."

Exactly what has America accomplished? Quite a bit actually - the Great Satan has turned Iraq into a giant sucking killing machine - grinding up Saudi rejects, Syrian minions, Iranian Revo Guards and old school B'Athist who wish for the old daze.

Challenging and uprooting time honored concepts in Arab social and political thought - like honor killings, gender apartheid, the secret police, supreme leaders, presidents for life, lions of syria, the religious police and (my fave) the dress code police.

So weird that the spiritual grand chirruns of WWII - those who suffered 22K in 6 weeks on Okinawa (when the war was nearly over anyway) could be so uninformed, defeatist, selfish and dangerously short sighted. Call it happy talk SF Dude, but there isn;t anything wrong with hoping 4 the best and reading that into current events. Especialy these - think of it! AQI - a sunni group of Arabs no less - being thrown out of an Arab sunni turf. Amazing! This is a huge defeat for AQI and their new best buds in Iran, Saudi and Syria - so forgive us for hi 5ing each other and not being weak, boring, inappropiate handwringers.

It looks like Congress will at least go along for another 6 months until March when there will be another assessment. That is fine. I expect Maliki to continue to reach out to Sunni's turning on AQI and Sunni's in even more parts of the country to turn.

Iran will send ever more deadly weapons and more provocateurs as well but this may serve to unite Iraqis against them just as AQI is uniting Iraqis against AQI. There is nothing like a common enemy.
We will use the reduction in pressure from the Sunni areas to supress the Mahdi militia and other Shia militias will help us.

We have a new stategy and a new General. Both look pretty good. If time proves me wrong so be it. Iran's promise to move in if we move out makes the extra effort just as worthwhile as the effort to keep Iraq from becoming an AQI haven.

Iran may have her hands full right now - massive riots nearly nonstop since May w/ almost every element of society - teachers, students, civil servants, war veterans, young people. The Mullah's and their internal groups like the Beseijis, the hizB'Allahis, the Pasdaran, the secret police, the internet police, the cell phone police, the religious police and the dress code police are barely hanging on by their bloody finger tips and may not be able to launch a surge of their own to counter this undeniable victory in Iraq's Anbar region (and all the ripples throughout the ME).

Time to ratch up the pressure on this failed, murderous, intolerant, incompetent regime and their doofus grande mullahs.

"starfleet_dude: "AQ in Mesopotamia"??"

Justrand -- No, no, you didn't get the memo. It's the war in Mespotamia now, so we can preemptively protest any action against Iran... just like the Vietnam war became 'the war in Indochina' when we actually started going after the NVA and VC operating out of Cambodia and Laos...

Docjim505,
That's an impressive peice. Thanks for taking the time to put that together. You're post gives me real hope for a better than expected outcome if we remain calm, cool and collected.

Factionalism is not just a fact of life in Iraq.

It seems to have affected America too.