Captain's Quarters -

If the Israelis DID hit targets with actual nuclear material inside, look for a lot of strange illnesses downwind. "Zionist plot" indeed. The lefties will go nuts: "The Jooooos attacked a peaceful, non-military target inside the lovable nation of Syria (which is getting ready to help us get out of Bush's quagmire in Iraq), and now people are dying from radiation poisoning! The Israelis did it on purpose! We need another UN resolution condemning Israel!"

As I said three days ago the best part of the bombing is it is a reminder--they live because we let them.

Which brings to mind why are we letting the Iranian leadership live this long? Once again, needing new clothes and trinkets for their wives, said Iranians will be in New York soon on another shopping spree. Oh, that's right, they will be also stopping by the UN to be feted once again reporting ad nauseam how Israel will soon expire along with the great Satan.

Pelosi and Reid must be doing all they can to resist the photo op.

give me a break. but hey, i guess since the israelis blew up the nukes there won't be any PROOF coming out any time soon. don't you think it's more than a little foolish, having been deceived about nuclear weapons once before, to believe this bull?

On another note I guess Chris Muir above has a death wish!

At a rendezvous point on the ground, a Shaldag air force commando team was waiting to direct their laser beams at the target for the approaching jets. The team had arrived a day earlier, taking up position near a large underground depot. Soon the bunkers were in flames.

Cool, more please.

Rumor has it the Syrian soccer team at this agricultural phosphate plant was called the "Isotopes."

Gotta keep wondering about the location of this site...and those truck convoys leading out of Iraq in the days before we entered Iraq.

Saddam knew we were coming, the Russian Ambassador was part of that forewarning, and Intel showed numerous truck convoys, some with nearly a hundred trucks, and in one case one convoy with Russian "diplomats" riding along. A lot of senior Iraqi military moved to Syria as well, to include their chief of intel. Could this be the destination for all that previously listed [by the UN inspection teams] materiel that somehow was "lost/didn't exist" after the invasion?

Sure would like to have the IAEA at a minimum, and reliable Western inspectors preferrably, respond to Syria's call for UN involvement to sort this "raid" out by first establishing ground truth on the incident.

Its a pipe dream of course, but finding the remnants of listed items from Iraq in the craters in Syria would be a major coup, as well as finding listed items from Yongbyon or other NK facilities as well.

Think Assad would allow this if the Security Council demanded it? If he says no, then it would surely show how toothless the UN has become, even moreso than in the decade before our removal of Saddam.

Maybe we should offer a nuke incident environmental assistance team or two...out of our altruistic concern for environmental damage and our natural concern for people and little furry animals downwind?

Given Syria's support for terrorists, especially Hamas and Hezbollah, that's a very good development. Syrian nukes would have immediately led to war with Israel; the fact that Syria still has not responded militarily to the attack shows that they cannot hope to beat the Israelis in a war now without nuclear blackmail, or worse. The greater threat of Syrian nukes was not an all-out attack, which would have generated a devastating American response, but of a terrorist attack using smuggled Syrian nukes, for which Syria could claim no responsibility. That's why Israel had to act before Syria could put those weapons in the hands of its proxy terrorists.

In the real world, this scenario is almost completely ridiculous. Syria doesn't hate Israel anymore than the USSR hated America or Pakistan hates India. People like you seem to think non-state actors were invented six years ago.

jesus make up your effing minds. captain reports that this possible evidence of n.k. and iran involvement. cold warrior hyperventilates that this could be the missing "proof" of saddam's never found weapons. WHICH IS IT? like the man said, fool me once shame on you; fool me twice... won't get fooled again! only problem is, jackasses that fall for this crap apparently don't know what shame is.

before Syria could put those weapons

G_d, don't even get me started. Weapons? So you know NK sent them actual nuclear bombs, huh? Not, you know, uranium, or something, like the stuff Tehran has spent a whole decade trying to weaponize?

You think if Israel "blew up" a nuclear weapon, there might have been...oh, a nuclear detonation in Syria? Think that would be a secret?

How can you be a major conservative pundit with this kind of intellectual vapidity? Oh, wait.

Good Grief! All this inappropiate handwringing over the IAF attacking Syria? Any proof of WMD? So what? Any attack on an intolerant, murderous, gender apartheing, honor killing, police state, gangsta klan regime is SWEEEEET!

Just wish the IAF had of buzzed Dennis Kucinich to maybe quiz him on why it is that tolerant, egalitarian societies with a free, uncensored press, and independent judiciary, a public treasury under public scrutiny, open and transparent elections can project their military might anywhere in the world - while tyrants and despots can't even protect their own south 40.

yeah, and talk about thin. the "sourcing" for this report is anorexic; no, make that bulimic. there's more meat on ann coulter's scrawny bones than there is to this story.

Odd, this is not getting MSM coverage. Suppose it does not fit the 'no WMD in the Mideast' template.

What is this love affair with nuclear weapons? All these third world countries want them. I suppose because they think it will buy them respect or provide leverage.

But does Syria really think Israel's going to give the Golan back because it claims to have nuclear weapons, or even if it really does? And would Syria really allow a terrorist group to act as its beard and detonate a nuclear device inside Israel? As if Israel would feel it needed conclusive proof before retaliating against anyone it deemed even peripherally responsible.

Sometimes I wonder (although perhaps not all that seriously) that this all works to our advantage somehow, all these dictators running around trying to get themselves a nuke. It seems easy to track apparently and it ties up their resources and energies in something we have more familiarity with than they do.

Hyperventilates?

If Syria went to all the trouble to build an underground "phosphate" plant in the middle of nowhere, with construction starting well before our liberation of Iraq, it doesn't take a genius to want to take a good hard look at the potential storage and usage for materiels regardless of origin.

That this facility is within 40-50 miles of the Iraqi border would make sense if one Ba'athist to another Ba'athist wanted to have a few things stored for a while. This is a missing part of the Iraqi WMD puzzle still...and this has been reported in open source as well as classified briefings to Congress.

As for the North Koreans, if there were basic materiels in place in Syria [infrastructure] so much the better. Having nuke materiels suddenly appear only after a North Korean ship pulls in to Latakia would be a tip-off on a number of fronts, and lack of an established facility would make no sense at all if one wanted to avoid detection from national reconnaissance means.

Direct Iranian involvement in this facility? Far less likely than NK involvement. Iran already has ample faculty to implement the entire nuke fuel cycle on their own ground, under their own control. The last thing Iran needs is for some Syrian dunderhead in the chain of command allowing Iranian nuke materiel in Syria to become known. Iran would lose most of its support from the Euro's at that point. North Korea on the other hand has a number of immediate needs on the ground inside North Korea, and the six-party talks are at a watershed. Moving evidence of weaponization from Nampo to Latakia, out of sight of six-party inspections, would serve North Korea well, and give them deniability when NK facilities are "opened up" and "decommissioned."

glasnost,

Getting a nuclear weapon to explode (i.e. go supercritical) takes effort. If the Israelis hit a bunker with an actual nuke inside, I don't think it is at all likely that the weapon would explode. Oh, the explosives around the core would probably explode, but unless they go in exactly the right sequence, all this does is destroy the core and scatter radioactive material around. At best, one might get a low-order detonation, which I believed is referred to in the trade as a "fizzle". Perhaps somebody better informed on this subject than I can throw more light on the matter.

And please note that the report concerned "nuclear materials", which could be anything from centrifuge parts to actual weapons grade uranium.

As for your assertion that Syria doesn't hate Israel any more than the Soviet hated us... Ai-yi-yi!

well cold warrior i guess you are right. after all, hitler would have never invaded poland had not those pesky polish border guards not been shooting at those nice decent wermacht boys. after all, hitler said so himself. anybody with half a brain could see he was just acting in self defense, right?

the only difference between your ridiculous rationalizing and that of hitler's is that yours is piled much higher and deeper.

and how the hell do you know what has been testified to in a classified briefing to congress? what a crock.

What drives lefties to betray our friends and support our enemies?
WE see Kucinich in Syria, promoting their interests even as it turns out they were engaged with NK and Iran to develop nuke weapons.
The MSM, for some perverse reason, ignores this important story and bit players like 'glasnost' express ignorance of the implications of the attack and the profound differences between the USSR and Syria.

gee hunter, i don't know. what drives righties to just make shit up?

"what drives righties to just make shit up?"

I think Prime Minister Olmert would be surprised to hear himself described as a "rightie", unless you mean he writes right handed (about which I have no personal knowledge). The Kadima Party is considered centrist I think. Perhaps you are thinking of Netanyahu, of Likud. Or perhaps you are thinking of nothing at all.

Because nothing really happened, correct? It's all a nothing, zero, zip, nada, gunisht.

E.T.:

Well, prior to my retirement from federal service, I briefed members of Congress and members of their staffs on an array of issues regarding North Korea, among other topics, it was a small part of my job description. I did other things mostly overseas as well. Since retirement, I get down to DC a few times a year when I can, hook up with old friends, some of whom are still on the payroll and a lesser number who are still active and we discuss mundane things as North Korea, African or South Asian affairs, Putin, Iran, the Washington Nats and other topics over dinner or drinks. I try to stay current. One can copuple all sorts of bits and snippets of conversation into a whole by good elicitation, also a part of my former job description. Much easier to elicit from Americans than it is with foreigners.

On the other hand, not having access directly to the players, if you have the time, visit a good university library in your area, one that is a federal depository preferred, and read a few copies of the Congressional Record now and then. Lot more interesting that reading People magazine or Sports Illustrated.

Knowing who the players are and what was said and what was redacted in testimony, and a lot of times not redacted as members of Congress can and do extend their remarks in the Record but not on the floor or in committee and have a tendency to exceed their brief routinely, it is fairly easy to find good hard info. The Soviets in the old days were a major consumer of the Record. Worked well for them.

The point is, E.T., the rational actor models when applied to regimes such as North Korea or Syria or Iran are wanting. Understanding how a senior North Korean is likely to act and react [takes years of practice and contact with North Koreans] or how a member of a Ba'athist regime would act and react, for example, transcends the state models, gets it down to the personal level. This is where the money shots get involved.

North Korea has needs, and Kim Chong-il has needs, and sometimes they overlap, most times they do not. Staying current on who in North Korea is traveling where and when is an indicator of KCI's desires and needs. Seeing an increase in Syrian delegations meeting with KCI over the past year or two, in excess of previous years, suggests a change in the relationship. Likewise in other countries. These are tip-offs that a good operational planner would look at and formulate countermeasures or simple monitoring. When a cash-strapped nation such as North Korea spends an inordinate amount of money on a project, especially abroad, it has importance far and away higher than a cursory glance would suggest. When a regime offers cash to North Korea, there is more to the cash offer than meets the eye in almost every case.

Iranian involvement also seems very likeli>

I thought Syria was sorta poor, not a lot of loot to build up their infrastructure, let alone with gazillions to spare to buy hot nuclear technology.

Isn't it more likely that Iran bought the goodies from North Korea and farmed the project out to Syria, rented some space in Syria from Baby Assad, and set up a duplicate nuke-building facility in Syria just in case their nuclear factories in their own country became mysteriously fried in the middle of the night by an unknown source?

I bet if President Ahmandinnerjacket's nephew *did* go to Syria to check on the damages, it wasn't to offer sympathy and drink tea, but to estimate what, if anything, is salvageable from their investment. Although one has to wonder how much physics any nephew of the lovely and vivacious President might have, so that he'd know what he's looking at. Maybe one of his bodyguards is an over-educated nerdy sort.

okay cold warrior. i'll just take your word for it. you know the score. be sure to let bush know when you find saddam's nukes. it would help him look a little less like a lying jackass than he currently does.

NahnCee:

A valid point. Shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, either. Problem is, there are several scenarios that need some serious consideration and there is this tendency to dismiss all possibilities other than Bush being a warmonger on the part of too many on the Hill and on the Left. For those on the Right, we don't need to melt every possible target out there either. What we do need is a non-political threat analysis and authorization to go after weak links in each chain of events. Money being but one of them.

In the 90's we were able to render a good deal of North Korea's overseas adventures ineffective by interupting the money trail. The recent Bank of Macau episode cost the North Koreans plenty. Not only did a large number of Asian banks refuse to hold North Korean funds, they refused to allow their facilities to be used to transmit North Korean funds into and out of North Korea. Not a shot was fired.

Unfortunately, in order to bring North Korea back to the table in Beijing, we relented and stopped our interference in North Korean offshore banking activities. A huge mistake in this Korean Wathcer's opinion.

Calm down English Teacher. I hope you do not use that kind of Language in class.

Those in this thread who have opined that we do not have enough information in the open media to really know and conclude much about this event/nonevent are correct. But speculation is OK. I do not see why this should even be a left/right or Democrat/Republican issue.

If we accept Israel did something but we do not know what, who do you have more trust in? Israel, a Democracy with a functioning legal system and free press that limits arbitrary government action or Sryia which completely lacks these things. In the absence of real evidence about what was there, what was done and why, I would expect virtually all Americans of whatever political leaning to deferr to the Israelis being justified until something clearly shows they were not.

"it would help him look a little less like a lying jackass than he currently does."

That, E.T. just served to dismiss any and all of your commentary to date.

One can civily discuss any range of issues, but the minute one of the MoveOn/Kos Kids reverts to their standard usage of the English language their argumentation is diminished to a large degree within that civil discourse.

And you are an English Teacher? Argumentation and debate, forensics, the development of linguistic skills is not a key item of instruction within your school district? The separation of fact and feelings in discourse is not something on the school district's sylabus of instruction?

What forty years of NEA domination of our public education has brought us.

englishteacher: There isn't enough evidence for anyone to make up their mind. Both scenarios are certainly possibilities. Saddam's nuclear weapons program disappeared. Some think it went to Syria. Some think it went to Iran.

The important thing is that there is a nuclear weapons black market percolating through the region, along with what appears to be a universal regional consensus that they will be used to destroy Israel.

Yet liberals appear to be absolutely obsessed with provenance. It's as if they are more interested in ensuring that their asses are covered when the nukes start going off than in preventing them from being built in the first place.

Here's an excerpt from the Boston Herald

"...The airstrike near the border with Turkey hit a shipment of weapons supplied by Iran and destined for the Hezbollah terrorists in Lebanon, according to a U.S. military official. (It wasn’t known whether this official was relying on information from the Israelis or on U.S. intelligence such as satellite photos.)

An earlier report said Israel attacked nuclear material sent to Syria by North Korea. Another report said the attack was on sophisticated new missiles. Hezbollah said Israel was testing an air route for a later attack on Iran. Any of those would be good reasons for action..."

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/editorials/view.bg?articleid=1031729

English Teacher certainly sounds legit - after all, mine really believes the goofiest things - Israel bad, Gop = Taliban, The ME was a centerpiece of love, tolerance and peace b4 the wicked Noecons overeacted and tried to plant a horrid capitalist system w/ all the trimmings smack dab in the middle of Eden, or equating honor killings and gender apartheid as some time honored concept in Arabic social and political thought.

The funny thing about MY English Teacher (talkin 12th grade here - class of '08) is she doesn't have any answers to quiz's like "Was Oscar wilde the father of the one liner" or an explanation of why using the phrase 'why cause' is incorrect.

But she is an expert on all of America's sins - real and imagined.

THOSE WERE NOT NUCLEAR MATERIALS!

They were...um... they were... they were chemical light sticks and luminous party favors for the children at that innocent wedding party the villainous Jews bombed and massacred, yeah, that's it...!

"In the real world, this scenario is almost completely ridiculous. Syria doesn't hate Israel anymore than the USSR hated America or Pakistan hates India."

Are you insane? Do you think we've forgotten the years Syria spent shelling Israel from the Golan Heights BEFORE the Six-Day War?

Those who can't, teach.

Those who can't teach, teach English because so much of it is subjective and can be easily spun to impress the inexperienced student.

The entity using that name is an idiot, has a personality that is full of rage (most likely at its own personal failure as well as any perceived lies of the Administration) and has to be a failure in life.

I see no reason to give it any further attention, since it's lashing out unreasonably and its main tactic appears to be name-calling - the last refuge of the moonbat scoundrel.

Hi Nance - Maybe it's not so deep as that - maybe it is super shallow. After all, the concept of service to something larger than self certainly puts petty, selfish and doofus type life time choices under a very uncomfy microscope.

You be correct about the name calling tactis - blogs on the right tend to focus more on analysis and being upbeat, positive while the lefties tend to be about SHOUTING down, name calling and character assassinations.

An effective tactive online - but it'll get U thrown off a debate team.

HIGH KUDOS FOR THE 69th!

And here is hoping Chris Muir has a nice bunker!

And here's wondering if English Teacher is employed by one of those MADRASSAS. umm - Well, not WONDERING, exactly - SO LOL!

Posted by richard mcenroe | September 16, 2007 12:26 PM

THOSE WERE NOT NUCLEAR MATERIALS!

They were...um... they were... they were chemical light sticks and luminous party favors for the children at that innocent wedding party the villainous Jews bombed and massacred, yeah, that's it...!

SO FUNNY!!! ROTFLTHH!!!

Perhaps English Teacher could educate herself by reading "Quotes and Facts on Iraq."

http://freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_quotes.html

If she insists that Bush lied about WMD, then, if she is at all intellectually honest, she must admit that all of the Democrats quoted also lied.

Most of all, she must admit that Bill and Hillary lied, before Bush even became President.

I don't think that they lied then. I do think that the Dems are lying now.

Posted by english teacher | September 16, 2007 11:48 AM

okay cold warrior. i'll just take your word for it. you know the score. be sure to let bush know when you find saddam's nukes. it would help him look a little less like a lying jackass than he currently does.

As opposed to say, Valerie Plame, Joe Wilson, the New York Times, Armitage, Tim Rusesert, and
Fitz Nifong-gerald, per say.

Posted by punslinger | September 16, 2007 1:35 PM

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

English Teacher is obviously from the same brain trust that gave us the DIM "open Records" act and journalism that got 250 American spies slaughtered in 24 hours during the Clinton years.

We really need them on OUR side, don't we!

SO LOL!

Bet they are still severely shocked when they get tossed over the fort walls, when they bring the battle back to the homeland, again.

After all, Treason is the sincerest form of flatterer for a democracy!

To me, the funniest thing about all the lefties that write in on here is their absolute assuredness on military matters combined with a complete ignorance of how military equipment works. Which is very common among the left, and unfortunately with the media who come from these type of people. Re the other day when they were all panicking because a B-52 flew across the country with cruise missiles mounted...I mean, those things just go off whenever, you know, like the M-80s that cousin Fred had in a shoebox in his car trunk or the bombs the Coyote got from ACME to use on the Road Runner...lol. And now they are convinced that if the Israelis blew up a cache of nuclear material we would have known because there would be a mushroom cloud...combine that ignorance with the completely misbegotten idea that if we are just nice to all the gangster Islamic countries they will leave us and ours alone and you end up with a group of people whose opinions are worth about as much as a group of 3rd graders. Years ago I did research for reporters at a major metropolitan newspaper, and they NEVER could remember the simplest military details, it just wouldn't stick with them no matter how many times you told them.

english teacher,
You mean like the democrat Congress cutting off all aid to South Vietnam? Or doyou mean Clinton's abandonment of Somalia and Rwanda? Or perhaps you want to talk about Obama's threat against Pakistan? Or maybe Carter's abandonment of Iran to theocratic tyranny? Or maybe the democrats who voted for the war, before deciding Iraqis who side with us just are not worth it? Or Kucinich and Pelosi telling the Syria dictator how great he is?
Hmmmm, so many tyrants and dictators to support, and so few hours in the day for democrats and lefty twits like you to kiss their butts.

Go Israel. Congratulations on another in a long list of ballsy, successful, heroic covert ops. Israel is a nation of warriors who will never surrender.

As a bonus, we get to laugh at seething lefties, who can only spew profanity and gnash their teeth in their perpetual impotence. No matter what they do, they just can't stop any of the military actions launched by the righteous against the evil. What a shame.

Can you imagine what the lefty reaction will be when we pull an Israel on Iran?

Oh. My. God. Some of them are actually going to drop dead of strokes or cerebral aneurysms as they type their impotent, invective-laden screeds on "Reich wing" blogs.

It's going to be such a gas!

1) This proves that Israel can fly thru the Syrian air defenses.
2) Iran has the same air defense systems..
3) Why would Syria buy 'cement' from North Korea?
4) Why would Israel take such a risk, if it was simply weapons for terrorists?

I agree with those who think this was NK nukes bombed by the IAF.

you have to look back at the birth of the modern leftwing peace activists.

during the early part of viet nam if you went to college you could get an educational deferment from the draft and as long as you made grades you were safe from being drafted.

if you felt you needed to be extra safe then you got married and that added another layer of deferrment.

if you still had a down deep problem with staying alive(out of the military) then get her pregnent. that was the third step.

then Kennedy was assisinated.

as things moved along President Johnson (A DEMOCRAT BY THE WAY) washed all of the college deferments away and the college cowards went ape sh$$t.

thats when the current anti war bunch got started.

there is every appearance that they firmly believe that the instant they raise their right hand and swear to protect and defend, that they will instantly DIE, and that the country's loss of their superior intellect, vast intelligience and supreme ability to come to a problem situation, step right in and F$%& IT UP WITH THE BEST OF THEM would be a global catastrophe.

and worse than that, they would have to get up at 6:00 a.m. every morning.

this has been promulgated by the college twits ever since through the left wing branch of the democratic party and they seem to have a large number of people scared.

not much compared to the voting population of the united states but enough to be "useful idiots" for individuals looking for public relations moves to support their causes.

C

and furthermore:

all we are asking is, GIVE SOAP A CHANCE.

and thank you to that unnammed leatherlungs with a bull horn at the fun and games yesterday.

C

I hereby invoke the "mercy rule" for ET and glasnost. Can you imagine a mind like that of ET teaching your children? Some of the carefully crafted critical thinking and logical arguments provided include "bull..., jackasses that fall for this crap..., yours is piled much higher and deeper..., make shit up..., effing minds...," and, last but not least, "lying jackass." Makes me glad my kids are already graduated.

If the Israelis did take out a Syrian nuclear facility, then they should be commended for their action--by doing what they've done, they've saved many lives. Even if it was just an arms shipment to Hezbollah, Israel did a good thing--the Syrians and their Iranian puppetmasters are acting in disregard of UN resolutions (nothing new here) and the Israelis do have the right to self defense.

As regards the angry left: Even though posters such as englishteacher and gaffo have probably never heard the name Herbert Marcuse (or maybe they have), they are following his playbook to the letter. All conservatives should read his essay "Repressive Toleration". In that essay, he clearly sets out the leftist agenda of silencing conservative voices using whatever means necessary. In the Marcuse's new order, conservatives are one of the groups who are not entitled to toleration. Marcuse is a founder of the New Left and his thought permeates the thought of Soros, Code Pink, ANSWER, and the other groups.

Bennett says:
What is this love affair with nuclear weapons? All these third world countries want them. I suppose because they think it will buy them respect or provide leverage.

Eric replies:
Bennett, they want them as a deterrence to the United States. They feel that if they have them, they can destroy our troops on their soil and prevent any form of invasion.

Posted by english teacher:
okay cold warrior. i'll just take your word for it. you know the score. be sure to let bush know when you find saddam's nukes. it would help him look a little less like a lying jackass than he currently does.

Eric says:
Bush isn't lying. You just don't like his truth. The problem is yours -- not Bush's

Also, nuclear weapons are like the battleship was at in the early 20th century--it's a symbol that you've made it--that you're a world power. The idea is that now everyone has to take you seriously.

Posted by NahnCee:
Those who can't, teach.
Those who can't teach, teach English because so much of it is subjective and can be easily spun to impress the inexperienced student.

Eric says:
Hold on a second...my sister's an English Teacher (but she's conservative.)

Posted by courtneyme109:
You be correct about the name calling tactis - blogs on the right tend to focus more on analysis and being upbeat, positive while the lefties tend to be about SHOUTING down, name calling and character assassinations.

Eric says:
I've found that they tend to take the position of whomever talks the most or the loudest is right. You see it on the far-right too (in Ron Pauls' group.)

Eric, good point.

Consider that there are a number of regimes that want nukes. Not to readily use, but to possess with the intent of prevention, or provocation.

Imagine, in the present climate (a worse climate if there were someone like Al Gore or Jimmy Carter, or similar at the helm) if a regime threatened to pop a nuke on a neighbor, a non-European US ally or a nation that was favorably disposed toward the US.

If they used this sort of blackmail, and had the ready means to carry out that threat, we would have a binary choice...attack them without provocation (if the current standards prevail) or back down, or at least accept their regional superiority.

Both courses of action would leave the US high and dry among a great many world players. We, in essence, would be the bad guy, not a sterady ally or reliable ally in the least for letting an ally be cowered into submission or being seen as a warmonger nation by unleashing massive casualties, to include among the citizens of that ally in a pre-emptive attempt to remove the threat.

It is the intent to use nukes, the ability to use them, the mere possession of them, that can be far more beneficial use than actually using them.

Any nation using nukes at this point in world history would be the focus of world condemnation, or at least among the civilized half of it. But forcing the US to back down or engage in pre-emptive warfare would set the US back quite a bit on the world stage and affect our relations with any number of countries, to include our allies.

This is the dilemma facing us with regards to Iran. Fortunately, even France is coming on board with the possibility of using military force to take out Iran's capabilities. But attacking Iran may leave us with a host of unintended consequences that we had better resolve or plan for before resorting to military action.

I spent a good bit of time with a North Korean defector some years ago, and he stated that among the senior general staff of North Korea they insisted on training their troops (the KPA) and indoctrinating them with the notion that NK had many many nuclear weapons, even when apparently they did not. This was closely held at the higher levels of the KPA and Party. The point was that when the go order was given in Pyongyang to move South, the troops would believe they had a nuclear umbrella that would clear the way for them should they get bogged down or face massive US forces. That soldiers would believe, honestly believe, that they had such an umbrella and this would make them more likely to move South with vigor than if they knew they had only the weapons on their backs to do the job. Iran during the Iran-Iraq war used the notion of instant Paradise and heavenly access to virgins to convince the hundreds of thousands of dead Bassijd and Pasdarans to meet Allah at Al-Faw. Imagine if Iran became openly nuke capable? Easy to convince reluctant troops to march onward into the guns when they believe they will win and destroy thousands of their enemies in the process with a nuke or two to clear the way.

Isreal has no such qualms...most of the region has no love for them, and even when they do something good, like Entebbe, the states in the region condemn them, as does most of the UN and Euros. They are realists, plain and simple. We, thanks to a Congressional majority who already thinks we are the bad guys, appear far less realist.

I have only met one liberal left winger in my life. Funny story:

My wife and I went on a cruise. One night while leaving the dinning room (me in a suit, her in a gown,) we stopped for her to go into the restroom. I waited outside. While waiting, a fat woman in a t-shirt walked up and tried to open the door to the restroom (it was locked.) She cursed. I said, “the men’s room is empty – I’ll stay here and make sure nobody walks in on you.”

She proceeds to say that when Hillary becomes President, Sttt like this is going to get fixed.” I look at her and I calmly say, “I doubt that.” She says, “oh, you don’t like Hillary? You must be one of those Bush lovers.”

I look at her and I say, “where the hell do you get off talking to me like that – we’re strangers. Stop talking to me.” Just then, my wife walks out and I take her hand and start walking away before she could say anything more to me.

The funny part is that this woman thought Hillary would create more women's restrooms.

"The funny part is that this woman thought Hillary would create more women's restrooms."

She probably thinks Hillary will eliminate the need to eliminate.

Courtneyme109, welcome to the discussion you acquited yourself well. Just the thought that you graduate in 08 gives me hope that all youth are not too dumbed down by 40 years of NEA to be useful productive citizens.

W. could do us all a favor before he leaves and abolish the Dept. Of Education.

Actually you sound much more mature than E.T. and hopefully will be much more successful. You go Girl!

Whatever the Isrealis blew up I hope they do more. Will Imadogonedingdong be so cocky knowing the best airial defenses they could buy are totally worthless. How bout landing a cruise missle on his breakfast table one of these mornings even an unarmed one would be fun.

coldwarrior415,
You're right on in my opinion. I think that in reality, all these people are buying themselves, however, is either a pre-emptive first strike using conventional weapons to take out the nuclear facilities, or even worse, a pre-emptive nuclear strike if things ever go seriously bad between them and us, or our friends.

dhunter says:
Whatever the Isrealis blew up I hope they do more. Will Imadogonedingdong be so cocky knowing the best airial defenses they could buy are totally worthless. How bout landing a cruise missle on his breakfast table one of these mornings even an unarmed one would be fun.

Eric says:
Heck yeah that would be fun. I think what America needs to cheere it up is a good old fashion 3000 sorte 24 hour strike against a target rich country. We didn't get that with Iraq and I think Iran is our next best hope.

I'm being totally serious.

jaeger51 says:

"To me, the funniest thing about all the lefties that write in on here is their absolute assuredness on military matters combined with a complete ignorance of how military equipment works. Which is very common among the left, and unfortunately with the media who come from these type of people."

Bingo.

And it's not just the posters here, but some of the people in power, like Chuckles Schumer, who criticized the military a couple of weeks ago.

Chuckie, of course, has never been in the military-in fact he's has never held a real job in his life (he went straight from college into politics).

PS to english teacher: where exactly do you "teach english"?. My guess is it's here:

http://www.bhs.berkeley.k12.ca.us/

Either that, or you're William Rivers Pitt in disguise!

Read this!

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=4585

As follows, the French are warning their companies that it is likely a war will be required to contain Iran!

French FM Kouchner: The Iranian nuclear crisis forces the world to prepare for the worst - which is war

September 16, 2007, 10:39 PM (GMT+02:00)

In a series of press, radio and TV interviews, Sunday, Sept. 16, Bernard Kouchner also said he had advised large French companies not to respond to tenders issued by Tehran. DEBKAfile adds: France thus joined the economic sanctions imposed by the US, Britain, Japan and Germany on Iran for refusing to give up uranium enrichment, but implicit in Kouchner’s advice was a word of caution to French companies to stay clear of business complications with a nation on the brink of war.

The French foreign minister, who is clearly focusing on the Middle East, spoke shortly after visits to Iraq, Lebanon and Israel and the Israeli air force operation over Syria ten days ago. Paris sees ominous signals in the expanding Iranian intervention in combat against US forces in Iraq by stepped up weapons deliveries to the insurgents and their training, and the rising military tensions between Israel and Syria – all under the cloud of the nuclear issue.

Eric says:
Viva la France! Our first ally is back!

If they used this sort of blackmail, and had the ready means to carry out that threat, we would have a binary choice...attack them without provocation (if the current standards prevail) or back down, or at least accept their regional superiority.

Isn't there a third option which you've left out? That of clamping down on their bank accouns and starving them into submission? It didn't work too well with Cuba, but Libya caved under pressure, and North Korea shows gratifying signs of heeling. And I keep thinking that surely Iran can't keep up this profligate support of world-wide terrorism, and how much that must be costing them; we've just started tinkering with their financial pipelines.

Even more on this at Gateway Pundit:

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/09/france-warns-of-war-with-iran.html#comments

NahnCee,

That would be a good first step and it needs to start today because it takes time to work and time is running out.

Iran has oil and a lot of countries who are willing to pay top dollar for that oil, and at near $80 per barrel they can amass a huge amount of cash in a short period of time, which they have. Unlike the UAE, Iran is not putting this wealth into infrastructure and improvements, but towards other activities like their nuke program, and support of Hezbollah and other groups. They seem to have cash to waste.

China is a prime consumer of Iranian oil, for example. China is also on the Security Council, and has the ability to screw with the US dollar without messing up its own banking abroad. It is fairly easy to go after Libyan or North Korean overseas banking, which had/have limited access to international banking and narrow channels in which to transmit funds. It is much more difficult to go after Iran...they have banking in ALL the same Euro markets as we do, and have a wide array of access to transmission channels outside of Europe as well. Going after Iranian banking in Europe would cause some major major problems for the US should that sort of thing become known. The backlash against US and screwing with our own transactions could be grave.

Economic sanctions? Given the recent UN resolve in maintaining sanctions against a regime the UN condemend numerous times and voted numerous resolution against, seems that sanctions against Iran would be a long shot. Too, we need the Iranians on the street, in the bazaars, among the students the youth and the middle class to upset the present Iranian regime. If they become the victims of economic sanctions we could potentially lose a good number of them along the way.

Again, I am against any precipitous action against Iran. But I support measured methods and means to bring them into check. If these means fail, then the military option should be actively considered and executed.

Using the Israeli foray into Syria in a postive way...veiled hints that the same is coming soon to Iran may assist in regime change, but I wouldn't count on it. When you have a leader who believes he is the chosen one to herald in the 12th Imam, the Shi'a "hidden" Imam, you got a nut job to contend with.

Eric, Courtney -- For example, here's Jane Hamsher of Firedoglake writing to Elizabeth Edwards:

"So here’s the rule. You never repeat right wing talking points to attack your own, ever. You never enter that echo chamber as a participant. Ever. You never give them a hammer to beat the left with. Just. Don’t. Do. It."

but what do you mean by "bring them into check"? what exactly is that needs to be "checked"? there is absolutely zero evidence that iran is pursuing nuclear weapons. they are pursuing nuclear power, as they have every right to do. they have allowed iaea inspections. what more can they do to mollify western concern that they are not pursuing nuclear weapons? on the one hand you attack me and my school district for failure to instruct students in critical thought, then turn around and insist the iranians prove a negative. you are being more than a little disingenuous on that point, sir.

how can they prove they are not pursuing a nuclear weapon?

also cold warrior, you can use my posts here to denigrate me professionally all you like. but i am not the one who claimed saddam had a fleet of unmanned drone aircraft capable of launching chemical weapons attacks against the u.s. the bush administration said that. you don't think that was a lie? and yet, i am the one with a credibility problem. i find that truly comical sir. and by the way, if you actually did work for the u.s. government as you say, then i hope you are enjoying your fat retirement pension and great medical insurance. try thanking the working people of this country who paid your salary, or is your understanding of public service limited to serving the interests of the republican party and the "defense" industry?

Oh come on, ET...if Iran was not trying to build nuclear weapons, what do they need with a nuclear power program? Be serious. That's like putting in a hot tub before you have a toilet. And what about all the quotes from old Achmadinniwhatsis about how Israel needs to be and will be destroyed, and there was no Holocaust? What is it with you people? Americans are all inherently evil, out to kick dogs and trip small children , but the actual aggressive dictators are all really good people that just want peace and are just misunderstood. You lefties all live in Bizzaro World, where everything is the exact opposite of reality. One hopes you just teach English to the poor unsuspecting children, and keep your other ideas to yourself. Oh, and if you understood technology, the idea of building unmanned drone light aircraft with chemical/biological payloads is not that complicated if you have an aircraft industry capable of building piston engined trainers. Which Iraq did. So that wasn't farfetched at all.

"try thanking the working people of this country who paid your salary..."

e.t. must teach in a private school...because otherwise that's kind of funny.

I think the concern here is "dual-use technology" and while it is true that Iran has allowed inspections of known sites, other activities have raised suspicions about parallel covert programs. Following is an interesting article about this:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2759862,00.html?maca=en-rss-en-all-1573-rdf

Oh, Eric, I could see this now.

Hillary gets to be president; and men lose their stalls, and are forced to pee out windows.

On the other hand, a more mature view ...

Tells me that IF Hillary "won," she'd be accused of stealing it. And, her life would turn into major complaints from Americans. It would make the Code Pink marches, look puny in comparison.

But then? I'm old enough to remember buses going to DC; scaring the pants of LBJ. He had no idea!

Now, this "thing" that happened. Where ALL Israel admitted was that it had a few pilots, going at the speed of sound, who "accidently" made an "incursion" into syrian air space. And, Olmert added: HE DIDN'T WANT WAR.

Sure Assad was nervous. Ehud Barak had run "war games" up on the Golan, this summer. There were ore IDF troops up there, than ever before. SO "after" the fly over; fly by ... to reduce tensions; Barak let some of the IDF "go home." (Home in Israel is close. And, moms' food cooking is way better.)

Then? Just, yesterday, Syria went public: "NOTHING GOT HIT." NO PANCAKES FOR YOU; to go along with the JAM. As a matter of fact, it seems syria had a blackout; minutes before Israeli planes flew over head. From the direction of Turkey.

TURKEY!

Oh, yeah. And, Americans gave Israel "codes."

But all that's secret. And, Assad is going to make sure you'll never discover what was in the "flattened area" ...before the winds came.

I'm very proud of Israel! Proud that they're not suckered into the UN fun and games. And, that Bush, at least, kept himself real quiet.

So, too, if you'll notice, the MSM are also closed-mouthed.

Which leads me to believe they'd hate to give the Israelis any credit.

Does it matter? You let fish wraps land on your driveways? You turn on the TV for "late" news ... And, the news is so late ... you heard it all before, on the Internet. Heck, even the deaf can use the Internet.

And, people in countries where English isn't spoken? They're learning to read this stuff! Spreading language through words you read. Do things get better than that?

How many pilots; and special forces on the ground, did this? More than a dozen? What if your number is LESS? What if there are more journalists, though, who are terribly tongue-tied?

Oh, and don't forget the donkey cart. And, the "grocers." Who got close enough, in gazoo, to pull out Shalit's top kidnapper. That's also true.

E.T., I had hoped you could do better than that. After all, you are entrusted with the education of children, have an education yourself, and should be able to utilize that education to formulate cogent argumentation, not only for yourself, but also as a teaching tool to provide your students with the means to deal with the real world in an effective manner using their linguistic skills you are charged with imbuing in them.

But, back to Iran...

Zero evidence? Not exactly.

How can they prove a negative? Simple. Open up their facilities, all of them, under the provisions of the Non-Proliferation Treaty, of which they are a signator, and allow full inspection, no-notice inspections, and account for all of their fissile materiel. Most signators of the NPT do so routinely. Those nations that do not are, in my book, suspect. That is the way the NPT works.

To be more specific, the Iranians building mass centrifuges to separate out plutonium is merely to provide electric power? Iran making several attempts to hide major portions of its nuclear program from IAEA inspections is merely a misunderstanding? Iran proclaiming on many occasions that they want to wipe Israel off the map is mere rhetoric? Iran making ongoing attempts to obtain nuclear fuel cycle materiels illicitly is to be ignored and Iran to be trusted? If this were a perfect world, a global Pleasantville, then perhaps there might be credence in those who go along with Iran's assertions that they merely want nuclear power to cover the expanding consumer market in Bushehr and Esfahan for microwave ovens and big screen TV's.

But this is not a perfect world. Until proven otherwise, based upon Iran's actions over the past decade, and more recently, it would be criminal if this Administration or ANY Administration took Iran at face value, trusted them, without verification. It is not just the U.S. who has reservations about Iran's intentions. Most of Europe, even the Russians, have reservations about Iran's intent. The previous Administration also had reservations about Iran's intentions. So, this is not a sinister [perhaps that should be dexter] Republican plot, not in the least.

You, and those of like minds, would be the first ones with torches aflame rushing out to lynch the President, any President, should Iran obtain a deliverable nuclear capability, and moreso if they passed this along to Hezzbollah or other organization, and used them, especially if they were used on us.

Me? I look at the evidence in front of me, and look at the regimes' track records of compliance to the most basic of IAEA requirements, I also look at where there money is going and what is being purchased openly and what is from a more sub rosa market. Put together a regime that boasts loudly that it seeks to destroy an ally, that boasts loudly that it organized, supports, funds, and trains and disperses organizations that have already killed a large number of American servicemen in several countries over the past 20 years AND has a nuclear program that has all the earmarks of being more than just trying to light the street lamps of Imam Khomeini Square, and prudence dictates a further look, and severe caution, and operational planning for the worst.

On a personal note, your comments on my retirement and medical insurance are simply juvenile, to say the least, and diminish overall your argumentation. I served both Republican and Democrat Administrations, though that mattered little, as my service for all of my adult life was to the Nation, I took my oath to the Constitution, not to the presiding President, and I served in some pretty hellish spots on the globe and under some hellish conditions. I was one of the "working people" of the United States for over 20 years. My benefits package was part of a contractual agreement between myself and the U.S. Government, and approved by Congress. Have a problem with that?

I served my Country, and continue to serve my Country. What have you done for your country lately?

Carol, let's not forget that Syria launched a pretty mild protest over this Isreali incursion into their airspace. [The North Koreans also protested this in their signature daily newspaper as well. Wonder what the connection is?]

Got to wonder why Assad is not more vehement? Why hasn't this been laid before the Security Council yet? Is it that the Isrealis did no damage at all, and things are perfectly fine out in Damsacus? Or, is it because the Syrians do not want any sort of UN or other inspection team to have access to the site of the alleged bombing? Or, is it because Assad understood loudly and clearly what the Israelis told him without too many words?

Israel is not going to wait for anyone's permission or opinion to strike against targets which contain anything that can - and WILL - be used against them in the future. The saying goes "It is better to beg for forgiveness..."

As for "english teacher" here. If I knew this person were to teach my child in her school, I would have a one-word answer: "Homeschool."

Nuking them would be a lot more fun than dreary little banking games.

You're right. Let's make Iran a test target for all the big-bangs we've developed since 1945 - put on a demonstration for the rest of a goatherders in the Middle East who are so proud of their ticky-tacky little suicide vests and car bombs.

Just think how happy it'll make moonbats like ET and that ilk, too, to have something different to wave their pink scarves around for and to ululate about.

Coldwarrior 415, here's the real dish: Assad is terrified that he'd lose "the" war; and, he's between a rock and a hard place, now. Since he's losing face among arabs. AND, he knows it!

But if Syria went for the "invasion of airspace," instead of the "oops, a mistaken overflight," then you gotta see that the arabs really are afraid of the IDF. Last year, in Lebanon, notwithstanding; SYRIA is scared shitless.

Sure, they were hoping to have a nuke. Sure, syria was building this at a point they thought the Israeli aircraft couldn't reach. (Because it involved Turkey, for "overflight" rights.)

Sure, there seems to have been some sort of blackout. Not just a jamming of anti-aircraft guns. But among the arabs, nothing moves without approval from the top. It's a top down structure. (Which is why they haven't figured out that hitler lost. And, hitler used to laugh at the AMericans! Because hitler thought he had the "dicator's advantage.") Putz lost.

Putz's seem to look for advantages, mostly in the media coverage; and that's pretty empty, now.

I do know that Ehud Barak, in the Defense Minister's chair, for about 3 months; has stock, in Israel, that just climbed sky high.

Calling cards have been left. Received by Assad. Worries Iran. And, Nasrallah. To say nothing of that "carry out" in gazoo.

Ya know, it's so old fashioned to leave "calling cards." But it was once done among the very, very rich. All along Park and Fifth Avenues.

To get a calling card, in the old days, meant you got visited by America's finest. Now, it's Israel's turn "to deliver."

Quick operations aren't as expensive as putting in military, and then baby sitting the group that has to "come up to speed." Israel? Washed its hands of these chores. Bush has his plate full.

And, the arabs, slowly, are learning to admire American soldiers. It beats their home grown terrorists any old day.

Were there nukes being built in syria? You want the MSM to admit to this? Don't forget they've been jabbing away that Saddam didn't have any.

And, they remain clueless on military matters.

While our kids have to survive the crap that got credentialed to teach stuff out of unreadable books.

If it wasn't for the Internet, reading would become a dying art.

Here? We're all sticking with the program.

Happily, for those of us homeschooling our children, there are a lot of remarkable texts out there with a very realistic world view. Most interesting has been my own education about the history of the Middle East and the Islamic faith alongside my son.

This year I requested the district's curriculum for my 6th grader as a point of reference. I was dismayed to find the "Imagine" world view throughout the Social Studies, English and science texts. Worse, grammar seems to have taken a back seat for anti-bullying and good citizenship training.

You would think with that focus in our curriculum that someone like ET would be able to recognize a real bully on the world stage when he (she?) sees one. Unfortunately, you would be wrong.

Looks like Israel is taking care of unfinished business in Syria before giving us a hand in Iran.

Let's get it over with.

Coldwarrior asked ET:

"What have you done for your country lately?"

Presumably teaching students that it is only important to capitalize if it makes you feel good. Hopefully he or she is not also inflicting these political ravings on the innocent.

On the other hand, Coldwarrior, your comments are clear, elucidating, and much appreciated.

dhunter says "...Just the thought that you graduate in 08 gives me hope that all youth are not too dumbed down by 40 years of NEA to be useful productive citizens..."

Why Thank You! Being Homeschooled for years by benevolent despots was a big help - real school is almost a breeze - almost. The kids get it.

Example? Palestinian Sympathy Fatigue. Everyone in my class was 10 or 11 when 911 hit. We saw Palestinians dancing in the street passing out laffy taffy having a great time. Then we learned that America had given Comrade 'Poppa' Arafat over a billion dollars and he couldn't get a viable state or constitution happening? Dismantle Israel? For what? The worlds 26th Islamic state? Screw That!!!

Example #2 - American kids also don't have a problem with the Great Satan going around the world stirring things up. After all, til 911 - the ME was NOT stable - it produced nothing but oil, victims, k'rans, martyrs, wars, terrorism, gender apartheid and honor killings. Shown by all the military meeting or exceeding recruit drives every 1/4.

courtneyme109, first of all, your benevolent despots should package up their education program and make it available to the larger public. Benevolent despot is what my older kids used when describing me in their younger years. Has a nice ring to it.

More important, you are able to present cogent thought in a manner that shows depth, and reasoning. In that there is hope. Keep at it. At the same time hone daily your own personal B.S. meter to enable you to successfully sift out the noise and chaff that so many young people seem to glom on to. A great education becomes meaningless if one cannot discern the noise and chaff from factual events. I have a son who is currently a Marine, joined a few years ago out of high school, something he wanted to do since 9/11, says he had a "good time" in Fallujah a while back, got to get out of the wire and interact with a lot of Iraqis in Anbar, in places most Marines never got to get to, including a number of initial meetings of Americans and local shieks and trible leaders that led to the Anbar Awaekening. He is a combat photographer which causes me great concern, as he stands up while everyone else is hunkering down in order to get good photos, but that is a story for another day. Anyway, he and his youthful comrades exhibit so much more maturity than their stay-at-home schoolmates in almost every category, they are a pleasure to interact with and provide hope for the future in so many ways.

A little unslicited fatherly advice, if I may...in your comments here resist the urge to parrot what others have said. Present you as you are, keep it authentic, and you will earn respect along the way. Logical argumentation goes a long way, even if we here sometimes disagree with you [which, to date, has not happened] but it is in that use of logic, solid argumentation, that you can hone skills that seem to ellude so many of your generation who are ripe fodder for those on either side of the aisle who would willngly use them. Hone these skills that will serve you well over the next many decades.

Me? I am amazed at your faculty. The benevolent despots did a good job.

coldwarrior - thank you for the kind words. I just read your resume posted earlier and I am blown away. Also your son is one of my heroes. My bro in law is in "Old Ironsides" - the 1st Armor division. He was in Najaf in April (I think) 2004 crushing Al Sadr's Mahdi Army v2.0.

Thanks for the advice - you are correct though - the bs meter is always pinging. I have had to hone my debate skills by being born into a large family - being younger than some of my nephews and nieces - I've learned to pick my battles, deploy awesome points, prepare for counters and remain dispassionate (or doing the hurt little girl act - really it depends on whom I'm with) at crucial moments. Being on the debate team at school is a big help too. It has certain costs involved though - while all my buds were reading Paris' Heiress book - I was plowing through Bodansky's 'Secret History of the Iraq War'.

Thank you for your service, I will pray for the safety of your son - he understands and lives the concept of service to something larger than self. He put his life on hold, goes overseas in harm's way. He is a hero. The he had '...a good time in Fallujah...' bit totally cracked me up, especially after reading Bink West's book 'No True Glory' about the Fallujah battle.

My fave quote is from Ex Sec Rumsfeld - "America AIN'T what's wrong with the world."